EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement

Peter Grant Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 General Committees

[Greg Hands]

That is an extremely hypothetical case. Let me be absolutely clear: CETA will no longer apply to the UK if it has been only provisionally applied. Only once CETA has been ratified by all EU member states and Canada can it be brought into force. Investments made during provisional application will not benefit from that sunset clause. The hon. Gentleman’s case is very unlikely to happen.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

May I first ask the Minister to clarify two points on the documents? Will he make it crystal clear that there is nothing in them that will cause any risk of our losing our publicly owned NHS?

[Greg Hands]

I am confident. The Government take the NHS extremely seriously. We believe ourselves to be the party of the NHS, and the protections for the NHS are absolutely clear. Those were made clear not just by ourselves but by the Canadians and by Cecilia Malmström, the EU’s Trade Commissioner. To be fair, she said this in relation to TTIP rather than CETA, but she made it plain that the protections for the NHS in that agreement would be clear. I am confident that the NHS will remain protected.

[Peter Grant]

The Minister niftily changed an absolute assurance to “confidence”. This may depend on how much confidence we have in the Government. My second point has not yet been raised: will the Minister tell us in how many instances the UK Government have asked for Scottish produce to be given the protection of geographical status? I think “protected names” is the terminology used in CETA. Those are massively important to a lot of producers in Scotland and elsewhere. How many of those names were put forward by the UK Government for inclusion under CETA?

[Greg Hands]

Let me come back on that specific point, but I will mention the importance of CETA to a lot of Scottish industries. There will be a big benefit, for example, for the Scotch whisky industry in Scotland, which as we know is hugely important for the UK as a whole; it will be able to be sold in Canada with no tariffs. That will be very important progress. That is just one industry; a host of other industries across the UK, including Scotland, will benefit from this agreement.

[Peter Grant]

I am being advised from a sedentary position that Scotch whisky should thank the UK Government; I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should thank Scotland for the bonus to his coffers, but that might be a discussion for another time. I want to pick up on the question asked earlier. A lot of people will find it difficult to understand why the Government are telling us that as soon as we are out of the EU, there will be a queue of major economic powers battering at the door to sign better trade deals than we could ever get under the EU, while at the same time Ministers have had to override waiver after waiver of scrutiny to get this deal signed as quickly as possible. Does the Minister understand that, if this deal is better than we could get after Brexit, it raises big questions about what kind of deal we can get from anybody else after Brexit?

[Greg Hands]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. I come back to his earlier question on UK foodstuffs to be added to the list for protected geographical indicators. The Government consulted relevant trade associations when CETA was being negotiated in 2011. At that time, no protected product was being exported to Canada in large enough quantities to be included on the proposed list of protected geographical indicators. However, CETA provides a mechanism for products to be added to the list of protected products. The Government recognise the benefits from protecting the best of our traditional and geographical food products, and will continue to work with producers to ensure appropriate protections are in place, now and in the future.

To respond to the hon. Gentleman’s question about better trading arrangements, we will have to wait and see. Article 50 has not even been triggered yet; we are still members of the EU. It is not possible for us to sign future free trade agreements while we are still a member of the EU. We are confident that the UK will be in a good position to negotiate future free trade agreements, but let us not jump the gun, and let us consider today what useful work the UK can do, in supporting agreements such as CETA, to show the importance that the UK attaches to the global free trade agenda.

[Peter Grant]

After its meeting on 12 October, the European Scrutiny Committee, of which I was a member at the time, agreed to a conditional waiver on the first part of the process, which is signing the treaty, but explicitly withheld consent for the other two parts. I want to ask first about the conditional waiver. One of the conditions was that the promised—not asked for, but promised—debate on the Floor on the House would be scheduled urgently. Does the Minister accept that this debate does not comply with that condition, and that even after we finish our deliberations this evening, the Government will still be in breach of the conditions of the scrutiny waiver?

[Greg Hands]

I have explained at some length the process that has got us from September to today. I am satisfied that the Secretary of State and the Department have put in considerable effort to enable us to have this debate today, in advance of the European Parliament debate, which is next week, during our parliamentary recess. This is a great opportunity—we have two and a half hours scheduled for today’s debate—to give the agreement proper scrutiny. I am satisfied that we have done what is in our power to make sure that is the case. I look forward to the debate.

[Peter Grant]

rose—

[Barry Gardiner]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Time is running out, and we have dealt with the issue in quite a lot of detail. I think we should think about moving on to the substance, Mr. Gardiner.

[Peter Grant]

On a point of order, Sir Edward. Do not Standing Orders provide for an hour for questions? I understand that if the Committee wants to suspend the Standing Order—

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Hands]

Sir Edward, as I understand it, amendments can be tabled in the Public Bill Office and withdrawn, which is what I understand the status of the amendment I read out to have been. It was tabled, and it is perfectly possible for people to go in and see what amendments have been tabled. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman says, the amendment does express regret about the signature and the provisional application. I think the onus is on the official Opposition to work out what their position is on CETA. Are they in favour of CETA or against it?

[Peter Grant]

May I refer the Minister to the resolution of the House of 17 November 1998, which prohibits Ministers from giving agreement to decisions in the European Council while they are still under scrutiny, and in particular to the paragraph that allows a Minister to take that action in certain circumstances? In the case of a proposal that is awaiting consideration by the House, the Minister is required to

“explain his reasons…to the House”—

not to the Scrutiny Committee but to the House—

“at the first opportunity after giving agreement.”

Agreement was given on 18 October. On what date was the statement to the House made?

[Greg Hands]

I am not sure that I fully followed that, but on why the UK overrode scrutiny at the European Council on 18 October, the Secretary of State wrote to the Committee to outline what he intended to do, given the fact that the three motions were to be taken as a package. He then appeared before the Select Committee as soon as possible—really as soon as possible—after that European Council, in this case on 26 October. The European Council that took place on 18 October ultimately led to the signing on 20 October. You will recall, Sir Edward, the delay caused by the Walloons seeking further clarification.

As for the provisions of the 1998 resolution, it is not entirely clear to me whether that refers to the House as whole or to the European Scrutiny Committee, which acts on behalf of the House in these matters. I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman setting out some clarification. I was not a Member of the House in 1998, but I am happy to write to him to outline the impact of that measure on our interactions since it was passed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Grant]

Will you remind me how much time we have left, Sir Edward?

[The Chair]

The debate must stop at 7 pm and it is only fair to give the Minister at least 15 minutes to reply.

[Peter Grant]

I think that means I have as long as the hon. Member for Brent North had after starting to come to his conclusions, so I will try and keep by comments brief.

The Minister asked what the Opposition’s view of CETA was. Well, there is not just one Opposition—even on this small Committee there are at least two Oppositions, and possibly more, but we will see later. The Scottish National party’s position on trade is that we want it. We form the Government of a country whose exports are worth almost £30 billion a year, excluding oil and gas—that counts as Scottish produce when it is bad news but not when it is good news. That is equivalent to about £100 a week exported for every man, woman and child in the country.

We can do that because we have confidence in our producers to compete on a level playing field with anybody anywhere in the world on quality, whether in food and drink, which have been mentioned, our tourism provision or invisible exports such as higher education. Scotland has nothing to fear from fair trade, which is why we are staying in the single market even after some Members here have chosen to leave, but we have to ensure that removing barriers to fair trade does not create opportunities for the destruction or hijacking of important public services. I welcome the assurances that the Minister has given us today, but I still want to hear them given to the entire House of Commons, not simply because I think that is what should happen, but because a Minister of the Crown promised that it would happen.

The Minister and some of his colleagues on the Government Benches keep talking about debating the process as if that did not matter. We should remember that the European Parliament, the Court of Justice and the European Commission are processes. If we are not interested in processes, why are we going through the chaos of Brexit to change the process by which our laws are made and interpreted? The process matters. Strange though this may seem coming from somebody who, as hon. Members will have gathered, is not a great fan of this place, I think that the principle of Ministers’ accountability to Parliament is so important that I would be prepared to see a delay in a trade deal that I was 100% in favour of if that would ensure proper parliamentary scrutiny. When I am here, I am not just speaking for myself. When the whole House is assembled, we are all speaking for others, and those others have raised significant concerns, whether they are well founded, based on misinformation or based on good information. Those concerns can be addressed without scuppering the whole treaty.

This issue is too important to be discussed late on a Monday evening in an upstairs Committee room in the House of Commons. I had a look at the BBC website a few minutes ago. There are 11 different headlines on the politics page, but this debate does not feature—that is how successfully it has been hidden away. I cannot see into the minds of the managers of the Government’s business. It might just be a coincidence that we got notified of the date, time and place of this meeting on exactly the same day as the programme motion for Committee stage of the Withdrawal from the European Union (Article 50) Bill appeared on the Order Paper. It might just be a coincidence that after five months of waiting for an urgent debate, it suddenly gets programmed for a day on which nobody but nobody is going to be paying the slightest bit of attention to it.

If the Minister is concerned that delaying the signing of CETA will somehow damage Britain’s reputation in trade circles around the world, what does it do to the Government’s reputation when a Minister goes before a Select Committee and says that he agrees that there needs to be an urgent debate before the full House of Commons, yet months later it still has not happened, and then another Minister comes along and says, “Well, yes, the Secretary of State gave that commitment, but it really doesn’t matter because we’re far too busy getting out of the European Union to worry about parliamentary democracy”? I do not think anything can make us too busy for that.

I simply do not believe that it is purely due to a lack of time that after five months we have not had an urgent debate on a major issue that has caused a lot of concern to well-meaning, sincere and genuine citizens the length and breadth of these islands. I simply do not believe that, if the Government wanted to schedule a debate on the Floor of the House at some point since 7 September, they could not have found a way of doing so. If that is not the case, and if five months genuinely was not long enough to schedule a three-hour debate on the Floor of the House, we should remember that the same Government tell us that they can negotiate an entirely new relationship with 27 different countries in just under 18 months. If that does not send a chill down the spine, I do not know what will.

Incidentally, I do not care what amendments the hon. Member for Swansea West doodled down, submitted and decided not to follow through with. Perhaps Government Members should think more about articles that were written about the case for staying in the European Union, which were somehow never published, by someone who had a kind of road-to-Damascus conversion and is now one of the most enthusiastic supporters of Brexit. We should remember that he has also changed his opinion about Donald Trump since he got elected to the presidency.

We are not debating amendments that were drafted and never submitted or amendments that were submitted and then withdrawn; we are debating the amendment before us. I ask this of Conservative Members. I know that the Government and the Whips have told them what they want to do, but if they seriously believe that a major reason for exiting the European Union was to restore parliamentary democracy—I will not refer to parliamentary sovereignty, because that does not exist equally in all four parts of these islands—and if they want to restore parliamentary supremacy over Europe, surely we should also be maintaining parliamentary supremacy over Ministers of the Crown.

This is not an isolated case. I have sat beside the hon. Member for Swansea West many times in the European Scrutiny Committee, and I have lost count of the number of times that that Committee, which has a built-in Government majority, has savaged Ministers one after the other for their complete failure to show any respect whatever for the due processes of the House. If the Government do not like the processes, they are perfectly entitled to bring forward changes and to ask the House to agree to them.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if our Chairman, the hon. Member for Stone, were here, he would demand a full debate and full scrutiny, as we do today?

[Peter Grant]

I am grateful for that intervention. I rather suspect that the hon. Member for Stone is more than capable of speaking for himself. We disagree significantly on a number of issues, but on this issue he and I agree entirely. Given that he has never opposed any of his Committee’s reports, and that we have had report after report severely criticising the Government for failure to bring important matters of public policy forward for debate, either in Committee or in the House, it is reasonable to take it that not only the Chair, but members of that Committee across the parties, agree that the Government, for far too long, have not been interested in being held to account by the House of Commons.

I make a final plea to those on the Government Benches. I am not asking them to support the amendment because I want to give the Government a going over, because, quite frankly, they are doing that well enough themselves just now. I am not doing it because I want to block the treaty, because my view is that, with a few changes, the treaty could be a good thing for the vast majority of people on these islands. I am asking them to do it because it is what they believe in.

Tory Members are taking us out of the EU. Some of them did not support that at the referendum, but last week only one Member on the Tory Benches voted against the Bill, so they are now accepting that the UK is leaving the EU, and a major purpose in doing that is to restore what they term parliamentary sovereignty. If they are not prepared to stand up for parliamentary sovereignty when it relates to Ministers in the UK Government, we have no chance of restoring parliamentary democracy anywhere else. I make a final plea: please do what you know is the right thing to do. We are not talking about holding things up. We are simply talking about giving the House of Commons its proper place in oversight over Government decisions that will continue to affect all our lives, and the lives of future generations for many decades to come.