European Union (Referendum) Bill

Peter Bottomley Excerpts

Friday 5th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman may have observed that the Conservative Back Benches are full of volunteers supporting their leader. Has he noticed that there are fewer than 25 Labour MPs here and no leader?

[Mr Denham]

As I will explain to the hon. Gentleman and the House, the reason for that is that this is a Bill about the private problems and the private political difficulties of the Conservative party, so it is not surprising that so many Conservative Members are here today. These matters do not really affect the rest of us very much, except for—I will come to this—the damage that is being done by the antics within the Conservative party to the interests of this country.

NATO

Peter Bottomley Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

NATO was originally a political grouping and then became military after the Berlin blockade, and particularly after the Korean war. The right hon. Gentleman is right to mention that the Labour Foreign Secretary of 1948 prepared the basis for the Western European Union, however. It has now gone, but it was an important part of the history of political and military co-operation in Europe.

[Mr Spellar]

The hon. Gentleman will also find that the North Atlantic treaty, including article 5, was signed in 1948 and that Ernie Bevin was the prime instigator of that. The hon. Gentleman is right that there were a limited number of countries and that other countries came in later, but that demonstrates the foresight of that Government, who saw the nature of the threat and recognised Britain’s responsibility to play our part in addressing it—and, as I have said, who saw the need to commission Britain’s first nuclear weapons programme.

We should also recognise and celebrate the fact that NATO has been one of the most successful military alliances in history, if not the most successful, especially if judged by the attainment of the objectives in restraining and containing an aggressive and virulent Soviet threat until the ultimate, and, in George Kennan’s prediction, inevitable—even if it was rather protracted—implosion of that empire. NATO protected the free world and western Europe, and also provided a beacon of hope for the liberation, with minimal bloodshed ultimately, of eastern Europe.

That does not mean that we should unthinkingly continue an organisation that has served us well in the past, but we must give serious consideration to adapting such an effective organisation to deal with emerging challenges and threats. I was very much taken by the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) about the ability, through NATO, to undertake strategic thinking. The success of that policy of NATO inevitably and legitimately raised questions about the role of defence and collective security through NATO at the end of the cold war. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) touched on that period during his contribution. I have to say, and I think that there would be some agreement on this among some Government Members, that the then Conservative Government, under their policy programme “Options for Change”, too readily reached for the so-called peace dividend, cut too far and too fast, and badly undermined our capability. They did not comprehend the stark warning from Senator Pat Moynihan that the world was still a dangerous place and that the end of the cold war represented perhaps less threat but also less peace.

Sergei Magnitsky Case: Visa Restrictions

Peter Bottomley Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

I am very glad to have the opportunity through an Adjournment debate to raise further the case of Sergei Magnitsky. I am grateful to hon. Members and my hon. Friends for joining me to support a case of continuing concern that involves not only the reputation of Russia but by necessity the response that we as a nation make to this scandal. I am very grateful that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe is here to listen and respond.

I should remind the House that Sergei Magnitsky was a Russian lawyer whose incarceration and death at the hands of the Russian authorities remains a standing reproach to that regime. He met his fate for raising the alarm about a $230 million fraud committed against the Russian state by its own officials. Mr Magnitsky would have been 41 on 8 April, not a dissimilar age to me. I am a fellow lawyer. I was able to practise without fear or favour. He was not.

Just over a year ago, the House debated the issue and took that opportunity to call for the Government to take action to target those individuals who are implicated in Mr Magnitsky’s death, and to take action in the form of visa and capital restrictions. A number of us called upon the Government to follow in the footsteps of, among others, the United States Senate by passing legislation to enact visa bans.

What has happened since then? In Russia things have gone from bad to worse. In March this year the Russian authorities closed the investigation into Mr Magnitsky’s death, having found that no crime had been committed, despite the findings of two independent domestic commissions. The Russian authorities also announced that they found no evidence of a link between Mr Magnitsky’s arrest and death in custody and his testimonies implicating Government officials in the theft of moneys from the Russian Treasury. Last month the Russian authorities finally launched a posthumous trial against Mr Magnitsky, the first in Russian history. That is not only an offence to natural justice but something truly out of the theatre of the absurd.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that anyone who puts the words “Russia”, “untouchables” and “Sergei” into a search engine will find the full documented history of what can be proven from Russian documents themselves?

[Mr Buckland]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. Once again, Google manages to set in stone important words that lead inexorably to a wealth of evidence linking individuals to the unlawful killing of that lawyer.

I was saying that Mr Magnitsky’s trial is truly out of the theatre of the absurd. In fact, it is redolent of the ninth century, when a posthumous trial of a pope was held by his successor—Pope Formosus was already dead when he was tried for his crimes. We have moved on 1,100 years, but Russia seems to be going backwards.

Outside Russia the situation has also moved on. In December last year President Obama signed into law the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act, which removes United States travel and banking privileges from those identified as involved in the persecution and eventual death of Mr Magnitsky. It also penalises those involved in the fraud uncovered and other human rights abuses. I was pleased to learn that only last Friday the United States Treasury publicly listed the first 18 Russian Government officials to be banned from the United States under that law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Buckland]

The Conservative party is not a sister party of United Russia. I accept that some work is done in the Council of Europe, but it would be unfair to say that we are in any form of grouping with that party. Many Conservative Members would regard such an association as inappropriate and undesirable, and that gives us, as Conservatives and as freedom-lovers, the leeway and the freedom to make the points that my hon. Friends and I seek to make.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

Put simply, this is an issue not of party blocs, but of right and wrong. As the leader of the delegation of British MPs to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, I was pleased that we raised the issue of Sergei Magnitsky at a meeting. The leader of the Russian delegation, Mr Nikolay Kovalyov, who is a member of the Duma and a former director of the FSB who was succeeded by Vladimir Putin, listened with interest and respect to what we said. We did not get what we wanted from the Russian delegation, but I think they understand that Russia will be judged in part by how it turns from looking at Sergei Magnitsky—the person who tried to defend Russia—to looking at the persons who have stolen money from the Russian people themselves.

[Mr Buckland]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. Like him, I have had the opportunity to address some of these issues directly with Russian politicians who have visited this place and sought a dialogue. It is important that none of us shies away from using every opportunity to raise difficult issues and to challenge in a proper way.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I first congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) on securing a debate on this important subject. The fact that Members from a range of political parties are present—some of whom have contributed by way of intervention—is a very clear message, not just to people who follow these affairs in the United Kingdom, but, I hope, to those in Russia who pay attention to our proceedings and those who do so on behalf of the Russian Government, that the case of Sergei Magnitsky has not been and will not be forgotten and that the fact that the causes of his death are not being properly investigated and no one is being held to account for his treatment while in prison in Russia cannot but do serious and growing damage to Russia’s reputation, not just in the United Kingdom, but in many other countries in Europe and around the world.

I want to begin by expressing my sympathy on behalf of the Government to the family and friends of Sergei Magnitsky. The tragic circumstances of his death have been outlined eloquently by my hon. Friend today and by many hon. Members in previous parliamentary debates on this subject. Every element of this case is of concern to the Government. The circumstances of Mr Magnitsky’s arrest, detention and eventual death, and the subsequent handling of the case by the Russian authorities are deeply troubling. I fully appreciate the strength of feeling about this case from many Members of the House.

As I have made clear in the past, the Government agree entirely with the sentiment that lay behind the resolution of this House of 7 March 2012, namely that we should defend human rights, condemn those who abuse such rights and tackle a culture of impunity for abusers, wherever the abuse takes place and whoever is responsible. In particular, the clear wish of the House in the resolution was to secure justice for Mr Magnitsky.

During the debate last year, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), made it clear that the Government would continue to handle the case within the long-established practices of this Government and previous Governments. He undertook to re-examine the situation after the passage of the American Act to ascertain whether there were lessons that we might draw for our own policy.

In recent weeks, the Russian authorities have formally closed the investigation into Mr Magnitsky’s death without any results. That happened despite the fact that it was not some outside body—not some non-governmental organisation or foreign Government—that concluded in 2011 that Mr Magnitsky’s death was probably the result of having been severely beaten and denied medical treatment, but the Russian presidential committee on human rights. It is therefore all the more dismaying that the Russian authorities should have closed the investigation into Mr Magnitsky’s death without results.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

Would it be possible and diplomatically appropriate for this debate to be passed, with respect, to His Excellency the Russian ambassador in London, with an invitation to have a meeting, on or off the record, with Members of Parliament who are interested in hearing what he has to say, at which he could also, if he would be prepared to, hear what we have to say?

[Mr Lidington]

From my knowledge of the Russian ambassador in London, I am sure that he will be paying close attention to what is being said in the House this evening and that no prompting will be necessary. I am sure that he and his team in the embassy will take the words of my hon. Friend as an invitation for such a conversation to take place.

Perhaps even more worrying than their closing of the investigation is that the Russian authorities have launched a posthumous prosecution of Mr Magnitsky on charges of fraud. I confess that there is something macabre about such a spectacle. My understanding is that such a procedure is within the ambit of the Russian constitution and Russian law, but that it has been used on only exceptional occasions in the past. Trying a dead man and a man seen by many internationally as a whistleblower, to put it mildly, undermines efforts to tackle the perception of widespread corruption within Russia.

I am afraid that we have to conclude from what has happened in recent weeks in Russia that there is no evidence that the passage of the Act in the United States has brought or is likely to bring closer the outcome that all of us wish to see, which is justice for Mr Magnitsky’s family and a thorough, above-board investigation into his death. Altering our own fair and long-established practice of entry requirements for foreign nationals seeking to come to the UK would be unlikely to contribute to achieving justice for Mr Magnitsky either.

The duty of confidentiality means that the details of individual cases are not routinely discussed. As the House knows, the United Kingdom does not prejudge evidence against individuals speculatively.

When visa applications are made, they are considered on their individual merits, taking into account all circumstances and information available to us at that time. As the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary and I have regularly made clear in this House and outside, where credible evidence exists, immigration rules empower us to deny entry to those who abuse human rights. It is a declared policy of the present Government that people against whom there is credible evidence of complicity in the abuse of human rights, should not normally expect to be granted admission to the United Kingdom.

We continue to raise the Magnitsky case with the Russian Government, making it clear that in our view a lack of progress in the case is at odds with the efforts they are making to demonstrate the independence of their judiciary, and to portray Russia as an attractive place for foreign investors. Most recently, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary raised the Magnitsky case with Foreign Minister Lavrov during talks in London last month, and I did the same when I met Deputy Foreign Minister Titov in Moscow in February. Recent developments in the Magnitsky case will also be discussed, as a matter of serious concern, by senior officials at the next bilateral human rights dialogue between the United Kingdom and Russia. I remind the House that the United Kingdom is unique among all EU member states in holding annual bilateral meetings to allow formal discussions about human rights. That gives us the opportunity to hold Russia to account on the human rights obligations into which it has entered through its participation in various United Nations conventions, and in the European convention on human rights.

Let me try to respond to the specific questions posed by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon. He asked about allegations that members of the so-called “untouchables” have been complicit in criminal offences committed in the United Kingdom. In relation to that, however, and to a couple of his other questions, he will understand that we have independent investigating and prosecuting agencies in this country, and it is not for Ministers to judge the credibility or strength of particular pieces of evidence. On the first question, we have a Serious Organised Crime Agency whose job it is to prevent, detect and contribute to the reduction of serious and organised crime, to gather, store and analyse information about such crime, and to deliver the statutory requirement set out in legislation and international treaties.

For reasons the House will understand, SOCA’s policy is to neither confirm nor deny any details of its activity, files it may have received, or specific requests concerning named subjects. However, that agency is always on the look out for and ready to investigate credible allegations of crimes of a serious international character that may have been committed.

My hon. Friend also asked about the death in Surrey of Mr Perepilichnyy. At present his death is still being investigated by the Surrey police, which they are treating as unexplained, and I therefore do not think I can comment or speculate on a live police investigation. Our understanding is that Surrey police believe they have access to all the assistance they currently require to carry out their investigation into the cause of death. My hon. Friend asked whether the Government would take into consideration the list of 280 people allegedly involved in the Magnitsky case that Congressman Jim McGovern submitted to the state department. As apparent from my earlier remarks, the Home Office would not consider documents provided speculatively in the absence of an actual visa application from an individual. Having said that, when a visa application is made, it is considered on its merits, and all circumstances and information available to us at that time are taken into account. When credible evidence exists that a person has been involved in human rights abuses, they should not expect to be allowed entry to the UK.

My hon. Friend asked about EU visa and banking privileges. We would be willing to looking at any proposals at EU level and to discuss them with our EU partners. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) raised the question of asset freezes. For the reasons I gave earlier, we do not believe that introducing asset freezes along the lines that the United States has introduced them would contribute to the objective we seek. Asset freezes would also need to meet legal tests. When assets are frozen by the UK or another democracy, they can find that such decisions are challenged in the courts. There are ongoing cases in which even UN and EU asset freezes against individuals are being challenged through the courts. There would have to be credible evidence that could, if necessary, be tested in a court to justify asset freezes in any individual case.

The promotion and protection of human rights continues to be a key priority in our bilateral relationship with Russia. In recent months, we have seen a worsening of the human rights situation in that country, whether in relation to the Magnitsky case, the restrictive legislative changes on freedom of assembly, the moves against the opposition, the inspections of non-governmental organisations, or the draft legislation to curtail freedom of assembly for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. Those concerns are set out in the Foreign Office’s “Human Rights and Democracy” report, which the Foreign Secretary launched yesterday.

We will continue to press Russia to take the initiative to ensure that the Magnitsky case and other cases are brought to thorough and transparent conclusions. That would send a positive signal on the protection of human rights and democracy in Russia.

Question put and agreed to.

Sergei Magnitsky

Peter Bottomley Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Sergei Magnitsky was born on 8 April 1972 and died on 16 November 2009, so he would have been younger than two of my children.

On 4 June 2007, Colonel Kuznetsov went with other people to take documents from Hermitage’s offices. On 24 December there was an application for a refund of capital taxes, which was approved in 24 hours. That was the stealing of the $230 million. The best description of what happened is on the website http://russian-untouchables.com/eng/. The Wikipedia article on Sergei Magnitsky is also pretty good. We have talked a little about the Cardin list, on which Benjamin Cardin, a senator for Maryland, lists 60 people who have been involved in the Magnitsky case. Two have been prosecuted. Of the lawyers who have been trying to help the investigation, one has been killed and five have been exiled. A colonel was put in charge of the investigation when complaints were made. It seems incredible that the head of tax office No. 28 in Moscow ends up with millions of dollars abroad when she and her husband together were earning about $38,000 a year. The colonel, who officially earns the equivalent of $10,000 a year, has more than £1 million in property in various countries.

I could go on, but the point is better made by reference to the full 75 pages of documentary evidence. There have been 3,500 articles in the Russian media on the case. It is not a question of only the west being interested; people in Russia are, too. Within about a month of the tragic death of Sergei Magnitsky, the Moscow public oversight commission reported on 28 December 2009 what it thought had happened, but two years later, the Moscow authorities have not reacted. A Russian investigative committee has extended its term nine times and has still not reported.

My view is that Russia has a chance to recognise what it got wrong. Stealing $230 million was one crime, but arresting, maltreating and then murdering Sergei Magnitsky was a second, and then there was the cover-up. I pay tribute to the Russians for allowing many other Russians to find out much of what has happened, and the documentary trail is listed in the russian-untouchables list. Then there is the official position of the Russian Government. I believe that the former President understood that things had gone dramatically wrong, and the current President might understand that as well. I call on both to say what they will now do to give justice in Russia to a Russian, and give hope to those who work with them. Russia will either get worse or get better, and I hope that this debate will be part of helping it get better.

[Mr Raab]

I rise for a second time to wind up this timely debate, in which we have heard 12 powerful speeches from right hon. and hon. Members both sides of the House. The shadow Europe Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), raised the wider human rights situation in Russia. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke of the state abuse of the Russian justice system. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) talked powerfully about the deep link between the Russian Government at the highest levels and organised crime. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) called for sharper diplomatic tools to address the situation and create some accountability. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) talked about the damage corruption is doing to Russia itself. We heard other powerful and eloquent speeches, for example from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), who talked about his recent experience of monitoring elections, the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), and my hon. Friends the Members for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley).

I thank the Minister for his welcome update on the Sergei Magnitsky case and what the British Government are doing about it. I am delighted that they share the instincts that underpin the motion and are shared by so many of its sponsors. I understand that it might be tempting to wait and see what happens with the US Bill as it goes through the Senate, but I hope that the debate might spur the Government to take a lead. I hope that the Minister will heed the will of the House and consider the legislative proposals that have been talked about in the context of the forthcoming Queen’s Speech, so that we can take a stand against the henchmen of tyrants and despots and deny them the privilege of setting foot on British soil or buying up British property, as we would a terrorist or gangster. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House notes the passage of the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Bill through the United States Senate, the Bill to condemn corruption and impunity in Russia in the case and death of Sergei Magnitsky in the House of Commons in Canada, the approval of the resolution of the Dutch Parliament concerning Sergei Magnitsky dated 29 June 2011, and paragraphs I and 20 to 21 of the resolution of the European Parliament of 14 December 2011 on the EU-Russia Summit; and calls on the Government to bring forward equivalent legislative proposals providing for a presumption in favour of asset freezes and travel bans for officials of the Russian state and other countries, wherever the appropriate UK authorities have collected or received evidence that establishes that such officials:

(a) were involved in the detention, physical abuse or death of Sergei Magnitsky;

(b) participated in efforts to conceal the legal liability for the detention, abuse or death of Sergei Magnitsky;

(c) committed the frauds discovered by Sergei Magnitsky; or

(d) are responsible for extrajudicial killings, torture or other gross violations of human rights committed in Russia or any other country against any individual seeking to obtain, exercise, defend or promote basic and internationally recognised human rights, including those set out in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During the debate you kindly answered a question about a communication from the Russian ambassador. If you feel that it would be suitable to invite the ambassador to a reception, many of us would like to come and listen to what he has to say about the matter we have just discussed.

[Mr Speaker]

It is very good of the hon. Gentleman, and very helpful, to seek to arrange my extra-Chamber calendar in the way he proposes, but I will reflect and digest—

European Union Bill (Programme)(No. 2)

Peter Bottomley Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

It would be improper for me to comment on the selection or grouping of amendments, which is properly a matter for the Chair and not the Government. My hon. Friend is right to say that the question of the possible need for a referendum on accession treaties is a matter of importance. I hope we get the opportunity to debate that in the course of today’s proceedings. One of the consequences of the programme motion, which I support, is that the House will get the opportunity of a sixth day of consideration. There will therefore be opportunities for my hon. Friend and other Members in all parts of the House to table further amendments and new clauses when we reach Report.

It would have been open to the Government, having decided to table amendments and hoping—I believe not unreasonably—that those amendments might be accepted by the House, to have said to the House, “Well, we now have to make provision for a Report stage, so what we suggest is that we curtail the Committee stage from five days to four, and that we have Report and Third Reading on the fifth day.” If it would be of some assurance to my hon. Friend, I want to make it clear that we had no thought of doing that.

We decided at the start that it was important to continue with the full five days in Committee that we had promised all parties in the House, so in order to provide for a debate on Report we have allocated an additional, sixth day for debate on Report and Third Reading. If, by some chance, the House decides not to accept any of the amendments tabled by the Government or other Members and to leave the Bill unamended in Committee, that sixth day would be available for a full parliamentary day’s debate on Third Reading.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

There seem to be three issues on which the Minister must guide the House: first, whether the Government thought that there would be no amendments and, therefore, no need for debate on Report, which seems a rather odd thing to have assumed in the first place; secondly, whether he believes that the extra day is sufficient for debating on Report any amendments that might have been made by then and any that might not have been made; and thirdly, whether he intends to avoid debate on matters on which there is substantial interest in the House. I do not intend that to be a criticism, but I would be grateful if he would comment on those three issues.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention and will deal with each of his three points in turn. On the question of amendments, the terms of the original programme motion provided that on the fifth day we would deal with the Committee stage and with remaining stages, so the assumption was that if there was a need for a Report stage, there would be provision for it. The Government have looked closely and carefully at each of the amendments that have been tabled, from whichever side of the House they came. As I hope to have the opportunity to explain when we debate the substance of the Bill and the various amendments selected for debate, we have been influenced in our policy and in the amendments that we have tabled by the amendments that have been tabled by Back Benchers.

On the question of whether the additional day will allow adequate time for debate, I ask my hon. Friend to look at the provision of time overall for consideration of the Bill. I think that a full day for Second Reading, five complete days in Committee and a full day for the remaining stages is a pretty fair allocation of time. I am confident that it will be possible for all the important issues that colleagues on both sides of the House wish to see debated to be debated within that time, but how long Members take to debate each group of amendments or how long they spend on particular clause stand part debates is, of course, a matter for them and for the House. The Government have no intention of trying to constrain debate artificially. I very much hope that we have time to consider all the important issues that have been raised in the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

The days of the guillotine started before the 1970s, when the then Labour Government began using it for all kinds of things that most people did not want. They were in effect a minority Government, passing legislation that was not doing any good to anybody, and there were great objections to the guillotine. Some of the greatest speeches were made by Michael Foot defending it and by Conservatives attacking it. Since then, we have carried on with it for some 35 years.

I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), and today is not necessarily the day to suspend the rule and go on through the night. On this issue as on others, one or two of us, if we speak for 60 minutes, have only just cleared our throats and are perfectly capable of going on for two or three hours. That would not resolve whatever issue the Government are trying to resolve.

What matters most to me is that if the Government are deliberately, and rightly, adding extra debates for the Committee’s consideration, there should be injury time. That will not happen all the time, but on this Bill I welcome the fact that the Government have made the change voluntarily and at an early stage of the Committee’s proceedings. We are coming up to day two of Committee of the whole House. I praise them for making an early change and recognise it openly.

What worries me is the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), who asked, “Is there a possibility that, because of how the programme operates, certain major debates will not take place?” That is what I hope we were addressing in opposition and will not do in government. We should say, for example, “What would a Backbench Business Committee do if it was considering the issues that should be debated?”

I am not concerned about the Speaker’s groupings; I am concerned that there should be debates on any issues that most people in the House say should be debated. So I put it to those on both Front Benches, that Back Benchers on both sides of the House expect there to be debates about the issues that we believe matter most. There obviously needs to be room for the particular enthusiasm of one Member, if they can get a relevant amendment accepted and debated, but, on those amendments that are clearly accepted as important to the whole House, let us not reach the point at which, by some chance or design, they are not debated.