Proportional Representation: House of Commons

Debate between Paul Sweeney and Joanna Cherry

Tuesday 23rd April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Mr Sweeney]

I thank my hon. Friend for that important point. This is the issue with referendums: they present simplistic answers to very complex questions, and binary referendums in particular often lead to contentious and unfortunately hostile arguments being made. A spirit of conflict rather than consensus envelops such contests. We must cut across those points and develop a much more consensual method.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

In Ireland, the referendums on equal marriage and abortion rights, which were preceded by a constitutional convention and citizens’ assemblies, are widely thought to have delivered such decisive results because of the deliberative democracy that took place in advance. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that on this issue, a citizens’ assembly or constitutional convention preceding a final decision would be the best way forward?

[Mr Sweeney]

I thank the hon. and learned Lady for that important point. It is critical that that spirit underpins any test in a plebiscite. Another example is, of course, the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, with the Scottish constitutional convention. She may say that the Scottish National party was not always supportive of that process, but in the end we arrived at consensus and an overwhelming result in the 1997 referendum, and we delivered a Scottish Parliament in 1999. It is a tried and tested model. That is in stark contrast to the rather more contentious referendum in Scotland in 2014 and across the UK in 2016.

We must think carefully about how referendums are framed, how they are delivered and how they are presented to the people for discussion. If they are unnecessarily contentious, we see no resolution and no popular consent; if we get a very narrow result, a large cohort of the population feels that it has been cheated.

I am open-minded about what we could arrive at in electoral system reform. The current system is clearly not fit for purpose, but I am not hung up on any one model. For example, there are problems with the Scottish Parliament system, which could be reformed and further enhanced. The combination of the list and the constituency link is not entirely coherent, and after 20 years of devolution, that question ought to be considered. The fundamental thing we must all agree on is an urgent need for a constitutional convention across the UK, to provide a root-and-branch review of our entire political system. Hopefully, through that, we can arrive at a system that is fit for this century.

Serious Violence Strategy

Debate between Paul Sweeney and Joanna Cherry

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

Before I turn to the subject of this debate, I want to pay tribute to those who are currently in Manchester commemorating the events that happened a year ago today, and I am very proud to say that Scotland’s First Minister is attending those commemorations. On behalf of Scottish National party Members, I offer our condolences to the families of the bereaved and to send our best wishes to the survivors. I pay tribute to the police, the security services, the emergency services, the NHS and other first responders last year, and most of all, I pay tribute to the city of Manchester and its Mayor for their strength and fortitude in the face of such adversity.

There can be no doubt that serious violence is a scourge on societies and communities across the United Kingdom. We have heard already today about the 22% rise in knife crime in England and Wales—the biggest year-on-year rise ever to be recorded, I understand. We have heard that more than 60 people have been murdered in this great city of London alone this year and that almost 40,000 offences involving knives or sharp weapons have been recorded by police in England and Wales—the highest level in seven years, I believe.

It is clear that current UK Government strategies are not working, and that cannot be swept under the carpet. Nor can the fact that cuts in police numbers and budgets do have an impact on the rise of serious crime. That is not my view—or my view alone: it is the view of the most senior police officer in England and Wales, the Met Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick. She has said in terms that cuts to police budgets play a part in these matters. It is a fact that while, between March 2007 and September 2017, police numbers in England and Wales decreased by 14%, in Scotland, by contrast, police numbers have been maintained since the SNP came to power at almost 1,000 more than under the previous Labour-Lib Dem coalition in Scotland.

I want to be positive today and look at the good news story in Scotland. These matters are devolved and police numbers are not the only area in which the Scottish Government have a positive story to tell; I was grateful to the shadow Home Secretary for alluding to that in her speech.

The infliction of death or assault by knife leaves a scar not only on the victim but on families, friends, neighbours and the wider community. We saw that in Scotland all too recently when, at an Aberdeen school in October 2015, a young man called Bailey Gwynne was stabbed to death. That caused a real national sense of shock and profound loss across Scotland. Despite that recent tragedy in Scotland, knife crime there has plummeted over the past decade. Given the recent spate of stabbings in London, it is understandable that police, politicians and healthcare professionals in England and Wales are now looking to Scotland for a clue as to how to solve the problem.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) said earlier, a decade ago, Scotland—Glasgow, in particular—had a serious problem with knife crime. In 2004-05, there were 40 murders in Glasgow, which represented more than a third of the total homicide rate across Scotland. The figure earned for Glasgow the inglorious title of “the murder capital of western Europe”.

At that time, I was serving as Crown Counsel, prosecuting in the high courts across Scotland. I came face to face with the results of knife crime on a daily basis. So I was particularly pleased when the then Strathclyde police—now part of the Scotland-wide police force—launched a new strategy in response to Glasgow’s epidemic of knife crime. It was a holistic approach that saw the formation of the violence reduction unit, which sought to treat violent crime as a public health and social problem. By treating violence as if it were a disease, the violence reduction unit sought to diagnose the problem, analyse the cause, examine what worked and for whom, and develop solutions that could be scaled up to help others.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central has already spoken about how, as a councillor in Glasgow, she was taken to the sheriff court there to witness gang members listening to evidence given by the mums and girlfriends of young men who had been killed as a result of knife violence. That had a profound effect on the gang members.

[Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the hon. and learned Lady for giving way on this point, which is a critical issue for my city to this day. The success of the violence reduction unit is a great legacy for the Scottish Government, under both Labour and SNP administration.

Critical to gang-related violence in Glasgow is the under-reporting of it in the city. One of the most effective measures that the violence reduction unit introduced was the surveillance of A&E departments, which cast significant light on the true scale of the issue in Glasgow and then enabled the deployment of effective strategies to deal with it. Perhaps that is something that the rest of the UK could learn from the city of Glasgow’s experience.

[Joanna Cherry]

Yes. The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to that, because the violence reduction unit works with the health service, schools and social workers to observe what is going on and to create lasting attitudinal change in society rather than just a quick fix.

Some mention has been made today of heavy sentences. Heavy sentences do not work. That is not my view but the result of research. That is why in Scotland we have looked at a more holistic approach, which has worked. Again, that is not my view but the view of the professionals who have examined the evidence. The violence reduction unit started out in Glasgow, but it is now a national unit across Scotland that receives long-term stable funding from the Scottish Government. It has been a huge success.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Paul Sweeney and Joanna Cherry

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Joanna Cherry]

No, we have heard a lot from the hon. Gentleman. I only have a little time left, and I want to develop my point about the single market, because it is very important. I am indebted to the Scottish blogger and writer Paul Kavanagh—better known on these Benches as the Wee Ginger Dug—for my thoughts on this matter. He has pointed out that there is no such thing as a UK single market. At the moment, the United Kingdom is a unitary state, and what exists in the UK is the internal market of a unitary state. A single market refers to the situation where there are several distinct and discrete national entities coming together from the bottom up in a mutually agreed and negotiated regulatory framework. That is what the EU is at present. It is not what we have in the United Kingdom at present. Indeed, after Brexit, if this Bill goes through unamended, the unitary state of the United Kingdom will be even more centralised than it is at present.

At the moment, the EU states decide collectively what regulations they want to govern the EU single market. On the basis of the Bill as currently drafted, what will happen is that Ministers of the Crown—by the way, that does not include Scottish Ministers; the definition just talks about Cabinet Ministers—will decide on these frameworks, and they will be imposed on us.

I am conscious of what you said, Sir David, so I will bring my remarks to a close, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op)]

On the definition of what constitutes a single market and a unitary market, my interpretation is that any marketplace’s singularity is simply defined by the friction in the trade and the commerce carried out within it. By definition, it is not really something that we can simply sign up to or leave. It is about the extent to which there is a commonality of regulatory and trading arrangements, and cultural and institutional relationships. Therefore, this definition does not really hold water in that respect.

[Joanna Cherry]

The distinction I am drawing is between a single market and a unitary market. I am saying that the European Union is a single market because it is a collection of sovereign states that come together and participate in making common regulations. The United Kingdom, as framed by this withdrawal Bill, will not be such a single market. It will be a unitary market where the regulations and the frameworks are imposed from the top down. That is the distinction that I seek to make.