Draft Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 (Consequential Modification) Order 2019

Debate between Paul Sweeney and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Wednesday 26th June 2019 General Committees

[Mr Sweeney]

Absolutely. This all combines to affect the individual’s income, which I am trying to set in the wider context. I hope you will indulge me for a little longer, Mr Hanson, while I do that. It is important for policy makers to understand the consequences of such decisions.

The Department for Work and Pensions’ universal credit claimant survey found that more than 65% of claimants in rent arrears fell into debt after they had made their first claim. Some 44% of claimants surveyed said that three months into their claim, paying their bills was a constant struggle and they were falling behind in payments, and that after nine months, there had been little improvement. The same survey found that 40% of claimants were struggling to cope well financially on universal credit.

There are a host of problems with the advance payment mechanism, such as that the repayments do not take into account people’s ability to afford them, that small deductions can have a huge impact on people who are living on a financial knife edge, and that people are hit with multiple repayments at once. The system works by loaning the individual up to 100% of their first universal credit payment, which is then paid back through deductions to the claimant’s monthly payments as soon as they begin.

That is vital in the context of what we are discussing, because the evidence shows that when the deductions are made, people are pushed further into poverty. That is exactly what I fear will happen with deductions from an individual’s benefits to pay the VSF.

[Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

I listened to what the Minister said and I have read the explanatory notes. It appears that the system is that there is a sliding scale of deductions depending on the fine levied. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows, or will press the Minister, on whether there is any discretion in the matter or whether it is an absolute deduction.

[Mr Sweeney]

My understanding is that it is a blunt instrument and it may not be applied intelligently. The detail will be subject to the decision making of Scottish Ministers and Members of the Scottish Parliament, who will determine the full nature of the roll-out as it pertains to Scotland.

I sound a cautionary note. As I said, the evidence shows that the deductions push people further into poverty. Citizens Advice Scotland has expressed concerns, which are detailed in the document that it helpfully provided, about the level of deductions that can be made from universal credit payments. It highlights cases where claimants have been left with as little as £49 to survive an entire month. Hon. Members sometimes do not like to hear it, but unfortunately that is the reality of what is happening to the most vulnerable people in our society who have fallen on hard times and are reliant on our social security system. It is failing them.

I have a further point on the policy’s principle, which links to the practicality of the order. About seven months ago, Police Scotland released a report that stated that

“welfare reform, including the introduction of universal credit, may have helped push robberies up by 30% over the five-year average.”

That is a damning statistic, which leads me to the substance of the order. The people who are included in that Police Scotland report are the same people who are likely to be affected by the order.

It is not necessarily the place of the Committee to block the order, which ultimately deals with a procedural issue, so, on that basis, the Labour party will not oppose it. It is blindingly obvious, however, that there is a complete absence of detail as to how the VSF will operate in Scotland when the order has commenced, as alluded to by the hon. Member for The Cotswolds. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister could answer some questions about how he envisages the scheme working.

First, does the Minister have any idea of the sums likely to be recovered directly from benefits? The explanatory notes state that no impact assessment was undertaken. It would be helpful to understand what value he expects to be returned. I am also interested in his thoughts on whether the administrative cost of collecting directly from benefits outweighs the sums of money likely to be obtained.

Secondly, can the Minister say anything about the operation of the VSF? For example, what model for imposition is likely to be chosen? If it is linked to the court fine that has been imposed, there may have been some factoring in of the offender’s financial resources, so that the VSF imposed would be proportionate to the offender’s means. However, as the Minister will know, there are various ways in which the VSF can be imposed that are far more punitive and do not take into account the offender’s financial resources. I would be grateful if he could shed some light on that. On that point, I would like to say to the Minister that I believe that the VSF is imposed in England and Wales without being means-tested. As a result, many would argue that it is a second penalty on offenders who have already been punished for their crimes, whether through a financial penalty or a custodial sentence.

The process that needs to be followed with regard to repayment means that many fines remain unpaid. In other words, an offender has to make payment of any direct compensation order to the victim, then the victim surcharge and then a fine. Logic would surely dictate that adding a further fine in the form of the victim surcharge is somewhat counterintuitive.

I would also be grateful if the Minister could clarify a couple of final points. In court, judges are made aware of the financial circumstances of the offender on conviction, as well as the circumstances of the offence. With a victim surcharge, how should this be considered when the judge is sentencing in order not to impose a draconian penalty on the offender who cannot pay the total sum? I appreciate that without details of how the VSF would work in Scotland, it is not easy to predict such things but it seems clear to me that, when the operation of the VSF does become clear, its relationship to sentencing must form part of the judicial training provided by the Judicial Institute for Scotland. What appeals mechanisms will be put in place to ensure that appeals, of which there are likely to be many, are dealt with swiftly?

Finally, I would be grateful if the Minister could outline what intergovernmental discussions have been had about the practical operation of this system. It seems logical that, if we are seeking to bring the Scottish system into line with England and Wales, there should be co-operation on this issue between the different Governments, to ensure that offenders in Scotland are dealt with in the same manner as those in England and Wales.

As I said earlier, the Labour party will not oppose today’s order, as it is a procedural issue. However, there are a lot of unanswered questions on detail, pertaining both to the principle of this policy and its practical operation. It is vital to take full cognisance of them as we make this decision today.