Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Debate between Paul Scully and Shailesh Vara

2nd reading
Wednesday 20th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con)]

It has been a privilege to sit here listening to the amazing contributions from the Secretary of State, the shadow Secretary of State—I thank the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) for his kind words—and all the other Members whom we have heard from and will hear from after my own short contribution.

As we have just been reminded by the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows), we have been coming here time and again for years and years, often repeating ourselves—but we have to repeat ourselves: that is the point. The shadow Secretary of State talked about that powerful ITV drama, “Mr Bates vs the Post Office”, and how it prompted a public outcry. I became a Minister in February 2020, shortly after the group litigation order case that was featured towards the end of that drama, and I am pretty sure that the email Alan Bates was typing to send to the postal affairs Minister was sent to me. He was sending quite a large invoice, which I politely declined to pay at the time.

I had pages and pages of Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment to look at and reflect on. I was in a different position from my predecessors, who maybe should or maybe should not have sat there and read the runes and seen what was going on—why there were so many people involved, and why the number of prosecutions was going up and up over 20 years. What I did have were those pages of damning judgment from Mr Justice Fraser.

I think that the public outcry that arose from the ITV programme has given power to the current postal affairs Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), who has been working tirelessly. He has read out a timetable showing the incredible amount of work that he has been doing since I left that role. I know that he is a man who understands what justice and fairness look like following his experience of financial scandals such as the miscarriage of justice at HBOS Reading. He was a constant “come to me” in that role. If anyone was going to delve into this work, it was always going to be my hon. Friend. I think that the documentary helped him to pull some of the levers that junior Ministers sometimes need to pull in order to be heard, and to enable us to swim through the treacle in other Departments in order to get things done, so more power to his elbow.

That brings me to why we are doing this in the first place. The central issue is often seen as a software failure. Even in the documentary it was a deliberate dramatic plot device to show a computer sitting in the corner of the post office, blinking away like a slightly alien life force that was draining the money away. But it was not a software failure; it was a human failure. We all know that software goes wrong—we remember the millennium bug—but the problem here was group-think and people doubling down for reputational management, which was pushing back and making sure that the postmasters believed that they were the only ones experiencing these issues. We know now, and we quickly came to know, that hundreds of people were in the same position.

The fact that this was a human failure means that we need a human solution. We have to be humans first and politicians second. The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw spoke of watching grown men trying not to cry. I am not the best at doing that myself, although I am not directly involved. I recently attended the presentation of the GG2 Asian awards round the corner from here, and to my surprise I saw Hasmukh Shingadia, Vijay Parekh, Vipin Patel and Seema Misra. Members may remember Seema’s story in particular; she was pregnant at the time when she was charged in West Byfleet. Those people were receiving awards and recognition, and it was lovely to see the outpouring of support for them in the room.

[Shailesh Vara]

Those are the people who received the awards, but does my hon. Friend agree that an award is due for every single sub-postmaster?

[Paul Scully]

For sure. We cannot do enough for these people. They have been cast out as pariahs in their communities. They have been charged, they have been put in prison, they have lost houses, families and health, because of a body that is ultimately owned by the state. We, as a collective body, have destroyed these people’s lives. There is not enough that we can do for them.

We are looking at what is in the Bill and at all the other compensation schemes as well, but we have to act. We are having to conduct this mass exoneration in the first place not just that the wheels of justice turn slowly, but because these people are so triggered, whether by PTSD or simply by total mistrust of the system, that they do not want to go through another process with someone in authority saying kind words, warm words, and then letting them down for the second time—or worse. It is actions, not words, on which we will be judged. When I stood up at that Dispatch Box, I knew that whatever I talked about, I could not expect the postmasters to trust me. I knew that they would trust me on the basis of my actions, and I know that my hon. Friend the current Minister feels the same way.

I welcome the Bill. It is important for us not to let perfection be the enemy of the good. Let us get this done, because we cannot come on to the second Bill and these people’s compensation until they have been exonerated—not pardoned, for they have done nothing wrong. Let us make sure that we accentuate that as well. That is why I am keen for us to rush this legislation through. Yes, we need to scrutinise it, but it is a short Bill, so we can do that quickly, and then we can get on to that life-changing money that I—that we—keep talking about, and try to restore some semblance of their lives to those whose lives have been destroyed.

This is Second Reading, and we will get into the specifics in Committee and on Report, but let me offer a few possible solutions. The solution that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) talked about earlier—bringing back judges—would at least add capacity to the system. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), who is no longer in his place, previously said something similar when he said that we do not necessarily need this kind of law, which is, frankly, trampling quite a lot on the independence of the judiciary. That is why the Government had to move really carefully, which is one reason for some of the concerns raised by the Business and Trade Committee about the people who have not been able to go to appeal, or who will not be included because they have been refused leave to appeal or have failed in their appeal.

There is still more that we can do for victims of this scandal. They will be able to appeal at another time, but maybe there is something we can do, in the way that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst suggested in their contributions, to accelerate their cases and not just let them have to go through the same situation that they would otherwise have done. May I respectfully suggest that that may be the case for Scotland and, indeed, Northern Ireland? I am not an expert or a lawyer, and it is not for me to give advice, but it occurs to me that if the proposed amendment does not go through and the territorial extent stays as it is—that is for this place to judge in other stages of the Bill—perhaps there are other methods that we can use to make sure that postmasters in Scotland and Northern Ireland do not receive compensation more slowly.

We all want this to be done as quickly as possible. The postal affairs Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, has talked about getting the majority of the compensation delivered by August. Clearly, that is not going to happen, because we have only just got this Bill through, so we will have to exonerate the postmasters. However, if we can get the Horizon shortfall scheme and the rest of the GLO largely done by that time, and restore these people’s lives to some sense of normality, then we can do the rest of it. We still have not finished, because we have to get Sir Wyn Williams’s report back and get the investigation done.

Some previous contributors to the debate said that it might take weeks or months to deliver the compensation, and that there might be complications. I remember speaking to the solicitors who represented the 555 people involved the GLO. I said, “If we gave you lots and lots of money and you distributed it, how long would it take?” The answer was about 18 months. It is about how we apportion the money and work it through—the same kinds of things that the advisory committee has been wrestling with—and the solicitors would have to do that internally. It is not a matter of giving people life-changing sums of money in one block and then everybody is okay; it is about making sure that we can work through the system, which will inevitably take time.

When I made Sir Wyn Williams’s investigation non-statutory, it was to get speed into the system to make sure that we did not have to “lawyer up”, as it was described. I always wanted money to go to the victims, not to lawyers talking about the same things again. As I say, if we can get the compensation out, we have to get the answers. We keep on talking in this place about the Horizon scandal, the infected blood scandal and any number of scandals, and I keep hearing people say that it must never happen again. Do you know what? It usually does. Why? Because we talk and talk about it, but we do not learn the true lessons or get the answers.

[Paul Scully]

As usual, my right hon. Friend is absolutely on point. In our Department, we had a number of arm’s length organisations, which is true of other Government Departments as well. They are representatives of the Government, and we elected politicians or the Government will inevitably be held accountable; if there is no direct relationship, it is very difficult to speak from the Dispatch Box with enough authority and information to be able to take that accountability.

[Shailesh Vara]

I commend my hon. Friend for a very passionate and committed speech. The point about learning lessons is crucial. I fear, as do others in this Chamber, that in the old times we would say that the file is sitting on a shelf, collecting dust; nowadays, it would be archived and just stay there. Does my hon. Friend agree that serious attention needs to be paid to ensuring that we learn from this episode and the countless other occasions when things go wrong? There needs to be some sort of set-up to make sure that other bodies—voluntary organisations or those at arm’s length—actually take on board what has been said.

[Paul Scully]

Absolutely; that is a really good case in point. I hope my right hon. Friend will be in the next Parliament to help drive this through. I have said I am stepping down, so I will not see Sir Wyn Williams’s final report—not from these Benches, anyway. I hope the House takes it to heart and drives through the lessons learned.

I recommend a book by Matthew Syed, called “Black Box Thinking”. He compares accidents in the NHS with accidents and near accidents in the airline industry. With aircraft, even just a near miss gets learned from not only by the airline in question; it has to be passed on to every airline in the world. There is a collective sense of learning in the industry.

Draft National Security and Investment Act 2021 (Monetary Penalties) (Turnover of a Business) Regulations 2021 Draft National Security and Investment Act 2021 (Notifiable Acquisition) (Specification of Qualifying Entities) Regulations 2021

Debate between Paul Scully and Shailesh Vara

Wednesday 20th October 2021 General Committees

[Paul Scully]

We have spoken to businesses to get the balance right. There are clearly complexities in these issues, and those will be determined in terms of the enforcement powers. We have decided that the figure and the impact we have calculated around that is the right balance to strike.

The notifiable acquisition regulations specify descriptions and activities of qualifying entities, the acquisition of which must be notified to the Secretary of State as a notifiable acquisition. Acquisitions in the scope of mandatory notifications that are completed without the Secretary of State’s approval will be void and therefore have no effect in law.

[Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

My understanding is that section 6(2) of the National Security and Investment Act provides that

“A notifiable acquisition takes place when a person gains control…of a qualifying entity”.

What precautions, if any, are in place to ensure that people are forewarned that a gain might cause difficulties? Otherwise, is it simply that matters kick in after the acquisition rather than having a forewarning system before the acquisition?

DRAFT PRODUCT SAFETY AND METROLOGY ETC. (AMENDMENT ETC.) (UK (NI) INDICATION) (EU EXIT) REGULATIONS 2020

Debate between Paul Scully and Shailesh Vara

Monday 16th November 2020 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (UK (NI) Indication) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. As I am sure hon. Members recognise, the UK product safety and legal metrology system is among the strongest in the world. It is essential that we continue to have a robust product safety framework in place to prevent unsafe and non-compliant products, whether toys, cosmetics, lifts or machinery, from entering the UK market. At the end of the transition period, the Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 will come into force.

This instrument was originally drafted for a no-deal scenario and needed to be amended before it could come into force to take account of the withdrawal agreement, and in particular the requirements of the Northern Ireland protocol. The original product safety SI will be amended by a series of statutory instruments—the regulations are the sixth instrument in the series—and together they will ensure that the UK continues to have a fully functioning product safety and legal metrology framework in place from the end of the transition period.

This amending SI will do a number of things to complete the picture on how goods from the EU and from Northern Ireland will be treated on the market in Great Britain and provide businesses with certainty about how to comply. This includes allowing for continued acceptance of CE-marked goods on the UK market for 12 months before making the new UK CA mark mandatory from January 2022; providing for unfettered access for Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK and introduction and implementation of the UK NI mark; and introducing a number of transitional arrangements to help minimise costs to economic operators and giving them time to prepare.

The SI does two main things. It amends domestic legislation to take account of the withdrawal agreement, implementing the Northern Ireland protocol with respect to product safety and legal metrology. It provides greater legal certainty about the dates by which companies need to comply with new regulatory requirements for the Great British market, such as confirmation that the new UK CA marking will become mandatory from the start of 2022.

On the protocol, the SI provides for unfettered access to the rest of the United Kingdom market for qualifying Northern Ireland goods, subject to product safety and metrology legislation. The SI will introduce and implement the UK NI marking, which will accompany the CE marking for some goods when placed on the market in Northern Ireland. This includes the introduction of an appropriate set of sanctions should the UK NI marking be missing or misused, in line with the penalties that apply when other product safety rules are broken.

I will now consider each of those areas briefly but in more detail. In respect of unfettered access, the Government committed to legislating by 1 January 2021 to guarantee unfettered access for qualifying Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the United Kingdom market. That commitment is intended to be delivered through both primary and secondary legislation, with the Government having already laid a draft affirmative SI to define qualifying Northern Ireland goods. This SI references that definition in order to implement unfettered access provisions with respect to product safety and legal metrology. The changes made by the SI will be inter- dependent with other required protocol work, for example to establish a Northern Ireland-facing product safety and legal metrology system, so the SI must be in place to ensure all aspects work coherently from day one.

On the UK NI marking—Members will find an illustration in schedule 1—the SI provides for two aspects of the introduction and implementation of the product marking requirements of the Northern Ireland protocol. It introduces the design of the marking and implements the approach to sanctions should the marking be missed or misused. As laid out in the protocol, the UK NI marking will be used to indicate that a UK-based conformity assessment body has undertaken third-party testing against EU requirements and approved a product for placing on the Northern Ireland market. That also means that such products cannot be placed on the market in the EU. That is a vital part of the operation of the protocol. Not proceeding with the legislation would mean not fully implementing the protocol and also cause business uncertainty about the UK NI marking and what exactly must be done to comply at the end of the transition period.

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

To the extent that the Committee is being televised, I make it absolutely clear that although I speak from the Opposition Benches, I am a full member of the Conservative party and usually sit on the Government Benches. I am standing here for the purposes of social distancing.

Will the Minister make it clear that the SI in no way impacts on the quality of the products? I ask for that clarification to make that point clear to those who wish to cause mischief as we seek to find a trade agreement with the EU. There are some who still wish that we had not left and they misinterpret things, saying, “This will lead to a deterioration in the quality of products.” Will he therefore make it clear that the highest standards will be maintained?

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Paul Scully and Shailesh Vara

Report stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 29th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I am going to make progress because I still have a number of amendments to cover.

We cannot accept any amendments that will undermine provisions in the Bill by rendering them no kind of safety net at all. New clause 1 does that, I am afraid.

I now turn to new clause 8. I appreciate entirely the spirit in which this has been put forward. While all of us hoped that the EU would negotiate and discharge its obligations under the withdrawal agreement and protocol in good faith, this amendment seeks to frame in statute a number of steps that Ministers could take under international law were that not to happen. However, this amendment is not necessary, as it would already be open to Ministers to take the steps my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) proposes.

As I have mentioned, the Government have been working with the European Union to reach agreement through the Joint Committee process, and through this Bill we are preparing for a scenario where that does not happen. On 17 September, the Government issued a statement setting out the circumstances in which we would use the powers provided for under clauses 42 and 43: the Government would

“ask Parliament to support the use of the provisions in Clauses 42, 43 and 45 of the UKIM Bill, and any similar subsequent provisions, only in the case of, in our view, the EU being engaged in a material breach of its duties of good faith or other obligations, and thereby undermining the fundamental purpose of the Northern Ireland Protocol.”

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that those who object to the clauses he has just mentioned should bear in mind the language that has been used by the EU in recent weeks in terms of what it interprets the Northern Ireland protocol to mean? It has denied the existence, as it is written on the face of the Northern Ireland protocol, of matters such as the internal market, unfettered trade and so on. So these provisions are necessary as a safety net—nothing more than a safety net. I say to the critics, “Just look at the language of the EU” and if they look at the language of the EU, they will see that these measures are perfectly reasonable.

[Paul Scully]

I am grateful for that, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right. These are reasonable steps to act as a safety net.

In the statement I referred to, the Government also make it clear that

“in parallel with the use of these provisions it would always activate appropriate formal dispute settlement mechanisms with the aim of finding a solution through this route.”