Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

2. What steps the Government are taking to support women in the workplace.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

To help, support and protect women in the workplace, we intend to build on existing legislation by extending redundancy protections for women after they return from maternity leave, introducing neonatal leave and pay, and introducing one week of unpaid carer’s leave. We are currently consulting on measures to increase the availability and uptake of flexible working.

[Gavin Newlands]

Earlier this month, I met Kate Seary and Mhairi Maclennan, the co-founders of Kyniska Advocacy, which they set up to campaign for zero tolerance of abuse of women in sport. The growing and welcome professionalisation of women’s sport means that this is no longer just a sporting issue, but an issue of fairness and dignity at work. Does the Minister agree that sports governing bodies have a responsibility to ensure a safe environment for female athletes, and what action are he and the Government Equalities Office taking to ensure that the governing bodies are meeting these responsibilities?

[Paul Scully]

The Sport Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston)—is doing a lot of work to ensure that women in sport, and other people, are not getting abuse in their workplace.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The unambiguous message is that using fire and rehire as a bully-boy negotiating tactic is absolutely inappropriate. However, and I will develop this point later, I do not believe that the Bill as it stands—even if it is amended, because we do not believe that we need primary legislation to achieve these ends—will have the intended effect, because it will not ban fire and rehire, as the hon. Member for Brent North said. I think he needs a bigger badge to explain what it actually does do, in his opinion. However, we want to get rid of using fire and rehire as a negotiating tactic, as a bully-boy tactic, and that is what the other measures that we are proposing seek to achieve.

[Gavin Newlands]

The Minister says that we are sending an unambiguous message, yet he refuses to legislate. I am not sure how that is unambiguous, but let me ask him this question: does he intend to talk out the Bill today?

[Paul Scully]

The hon. Member talks about being unambiguous and says that we are refusing to legislate. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), legislation that comes from the fact that we are coming to the end of a pandemic is not the right way to reflect the concerns about the long-term issue of workers’ rights. We need to make sure that we can address the situation. We will legislate if we need to, but as a last resort, not a first resort. A fundamental difference between Government and Opposition Members is that Opposition Members immediately look for primary legislation rather than other ways of incentivising employers to do the right thing, with the carrot of incentivisation and the stick of making sure that there are financial penalties and clear downsides for businesses that do the wrong thing.

McVitie’s Tollcross Factory

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) on securing and indeed completing today’s important debate. I had feared that we were going to have one of Parliament’s longest ever interventions by the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) should that not have been the case. As Mr Deputy Speaker has said, we are here to be the voice of our constituents and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman’s voice is being heard at full volume here today, as he brings this really important issue to the attention of the House.

I also pay tribute to Kate Forbes, the Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy, for all the work that she is doing with Susan Aitken, the leader of Glasgow City Council, the unions and other agencies to secure a positive outcome for the site and its 468 employees, and I know that their message will be heard loud and clear today.

I, too, join the hon. Gentleman in remembering Andy Millar. I pay my sincere condolences to his family, friends and colleagues. This is such a reminder of the human nature of these issues. These decisions are not just about spreadsheets; there is a human cost. It is so, so important that we remember what is at stake here. Unfortunately, the stakes are incredibly high and I pay tribute to Andy Millar.

The employees and their families are central to the debate and we must continue to focus our efforts on them to secure a positive future. As we have heard, it is the employees who have made the McVitie’s brand so successful. Some belong to families who have worked at Tollcross for generations, and they should rightly be proud to be part of the century-long history of making the famous biscuits that have been household names in Britain for decades and are enjoyed by people all over the world. The petition that the hon. Gentleman referred to, which has attracted more than 54,000 signatures, demonstrates that that is a widely held view.

I therefore pay tribute to the workers who have continued to work through the pandemic, like many other factory workers, to ensure that the nation can continue to enjoy its favourite products. I sympathise with all those who will be affected by the company’s decision to close the Tollcross site factory, which is so important to the local community and the wider local economy. I say to them that we will do all we can, working with the Scottish Government, to ensure that they can access the support that they need.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that, although we are disappointed that pladis has taken this decision and issued the redundancy notices, it is a commercial decision for the company. Although the Government have no role in the strategic direction or management of private companies, we stand ready to support anyone affected by the redundancies.

[Gavin Newlands]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; I had not given him an indication that I would intervene. May I ask what the Government have done thus far? I take him at his word on his sincerity on the issue, but when I secured a debate on the hundreds of jobs that were going to go at Rolls-Royce at Inchinnan, the then Minister—the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi)—essentially said that the workers should be grateful that they had been offered voluntary redundancy. Can the present Minister tell us, and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) and the workers at Tollcross, what the Government are actually doing about it?

[Paul Scully]

Yes, I will outline a few of the issues that my colleagues at the Department for Work and Pensions will be standing up as a result. I do recognise that this is a worrying time for those Pladis employees. We will do all we can to support each of the workers affected, including through the Department for Work and Pensions, Jobcentre Plus and the support that they can access through Partnership Action for Continuing Employment in Scotland. People will also be able to access redundancy help and job search advice through the Department for Work and Pensions’ jobhelp.campaign.gov.uk website.

There is also information on gov.uk and updated information packs provided to employers to help them to signpost employees to the support that is available. That support includes connecting people to jobs in the local labour market; help with job searches, including CV writing, interview skills, where to find jobs and how to apply for them; and help to identify transferable skills and skills gaps linked to the local labour market, along with advice on what benefits they may get and how to claim. Additionally, the Government’s plan for jobs is helping to support businesses to recover from the pandemic and create more jobs, with measures such as VAT cuts, business rates relief and cash grants for the sectors most affected.

Employment Rights

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Tuesday 8th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the work that she continues to do in this area. The law is absolutely clear that discrimination in the workplace is unlawful, with clear regulations in place that every employer must follow. The pandemic has not changed any of that. There is no place for that under any circumstances. We believe that the most appropriate way forward for pregnant women and new mothers is to extend the existing framework of protections set out under regulation 10 of the Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999. We will do that by extending redundancy protections for six months for mothers returning to work and ensuring that pregnant women also benefit from these additional protections. We will bring these forward as part of the employment Bill, which will also be the vehicle that will bring the single enforcement body together.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

May I start by saying that I very much look forward to supporting the fire and rehire Bill of the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), now that my own Bill has fallen? After months of warm words for the victims of fire and rehire from the Prime Minister through to the Minister, is this it? What do we have? Guidance that amounts to nothing more than utterly shameful lip service. The statement states:

“It is unacceptable and, frankly, immoral to use the threat of fire and rehire as a negotiating tactic to force through changes to people’s employment contracts”.

I agree, so can the Minister tell us whether employers will still legally be allowed to do so: yes or no?

Post Office Update

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

This is the end of the beginning. Clearly, there is a long way to go to ensure that we get the answers, but in holding the Post Office’s feet to the fire, I do not want to add stigma to the Post Office moving forward; for the reasons that we have heard today, post offices are right at the heart of all our communities, so it is important that we have that day zero to reset the Post Office’s future relationship with postmasters and its communities while getting answers, justice and fair compensation for those who have been wronged over the last two decades.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

I do welcome the statement, but it has taken far too long for it to happen. My constituent was held responsible for missing funds, charged, convicted and sentenced to 13 months in prison. It cost her not only her home, which she had to sell to meet these debts, but her marriage. She was left penniless and had to move out of the area, and is understandably concerned that nearly 40% of the compensation awarded is just swallowed up by legal costs. As others have said, that has to be addressed. My constituent has lost everything. What does appropriate compensation look like for people like her?

[Paul Scully]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s constituent will feel confident in coming forward and outlining her case and those financial losses, exactly as he has described, so that Sir Wyn can take a holistic view. On compensation, as I say, the Post Office now needs to ensure that it works with the postmasters and addresses issues such as Fujitsu, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker) talked about earlier, and that it compensates all these wronged postmasters in a fair way.

Fire and Rehire

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Tuesday 27th April 2021 Westminster Hall

[Gavin Newlands]

I hear yet more warm words, and I hear about the Government’s support for workers, the furlough scheme, and what have you. Let us concede the furlough scheme. However, what does the Minister say to workers who have taken redundancy when faced with fire and rehire threats, or who have been forced out of a business, or to the British Gas engineers sacked without any redundancy payment?

[Paul Scully]

I will come to fire and rehire. In individual company disputes, in the first instance it should always be ensured that the company and employers can have conversations and dialogues with the unions, should there be a union supporting the workers.

The debate has explored a lot of issues related to fire and rehire, where employers dismiss or threaten to dismiss employees, only to hire them again on less favourable terms and conditions. However, the UK already has a robust legal framework to ensure that employees are treated fairly. Employers are clearly free to offer the terms and conditions of employment that best suit their business needs, but they must always act fairly and not discriminate unlawfully, such as on grounds of race, sex or disability. Redundancy law requires that any redundancy process be fair and reasonable, with appropriate equalities considerations. Those rules include giving a notice period and consulting staff before a final decision is reached. We have clear laws on unfair dismissal, covering such things as the application of unfair selection criteria or failure to consider the possibility of transfer to other work.

However, it is not just a matter of what the law requires; it is in businesses’ own interests to have committed, motivated staff who are properly engaged in decisions about their future. As I have said, in the vast majority of cases businesses want to do the right thing by their employees, and I am determined to help them with that, to make sure that we find the best approach for employers and employees. However, we should tread carefully when considering Government intervention in commercial contractual matters between employers and employees. We must and do protect workers from unfair practices, especially when they put unnecessary stress on people who fear for their livelihoods, but we must also allow businesses to take the sometimes difficult decisions that are necessary to preserve their commercial viability.

Some Members have called this afternoon for the Government to legislate for a ban on fire and rehire. The Government have always been clear that we do not accept the inappropriate use by some employers of fire and rehire as a negotiation tactic. I have met Members and trade unions to discuss the issue, and in those discussions it has been made plain to me what anxiety and distress such tactics cause, particularly when individuals feel that they have no real option to say no and negotiate better terms. We have heard examples of that today. However, it is right and proper to consider the evidence, to avoid any course of action that would run the risk of doing more harm than good.

For example, it would be counterproductive if measures that prevented businesses from rehiring staff on different terms and conditions meant that a business could no longer survive, so that its staff found themselves out of work entirely. That would be the worst possible outcome for both businesses and the people they employ, so we need robust evidence to make robust policy decisions. That is why my Department asked ACAS to conduct an evidence-gathering exercise to learn more about the use of fire and rehire. Some Members of the House have continued to call upon my Department to publish this evidence, including during this debate. Let me clarify: we asked ACAS for its help in developing the evidence base on this complex and sensitive issue. We are carefully considering the different issues and viewpoints raised, which is vital for good policy making, and we will set out our steps in due course.

As mentioned today, unfortunately, due to the impacts of covid, some employers may be considering making redundancies. We urge employers to consider all options and alternatives before making redundancies, but we recognise that it is not going to be possible to save every business and every job. Collective redundancy legislation requires employers proposing to make 20 or more employees redundant from one establishment in a 90-day period to consult employees or their representatives, and that must include a consultation on ways to avoid redundancies, reduce their number, or mitigate their impact. Within the same timescales, the employer must notify the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy of the proposed collective redundancies. Failure to notify is an offence. Employees and/or their representatives may make a claim to an employment tribunal if they consider the employers not compliant with the consultation for collective redundancies. If the tribunal agrees, it may make a protective award of up to 90 days’ remuneration per employee. If a protective award is made against a company in liquidation, the Insolvency Service can pay the protective award, within certain limits.

In spite of the unprecedented support made available by the Government, many people have had to make really difficult decisions about their livelihoods since last March. This includes employers who have spent years investing in and growing their businesses, and workers who have shown loyalty and dedication to a particular profession or service. This debate has highlighted the challenges that everyone is having to face, and the enormous impact that losing a job or the threat of losing a job has on individuals and their families.

[Gavin Newlands]

I have heard all of that, and I have heard the Minister’s justification for not publishing the ACAS report thus far, but can he guarantee that at some point after the Queen’s Speech—in the next Session—the Government will publish the report in full, and what the Government intend to do about it?

[Paul Scully]

What I will say at the moment is that we are fully considering that, and we will continue discussion and debate on it, because it is important that that evidence base forms part of those policy-making criteria. Employers need to make sure that they can take the decisions they need to maintain their commercial viability during all of this, and as I have said, most businesses are doing the right thing. I have been an employer myself for the best part of 25 years before being elected, and I know what it is like to be responsible for someone else’s livelihood. It is deeply unfortunate, however, that the actions of some unscrupulous employers are tarring others with the same brush. Even at a time when businesses face acute challenges, fire and rehire should only ever be used as an option of last resort. As I have made clear repeatedly, it is completely unacceptable to use threats of fire and rehire simply as a negotiation tactic.

Once again, I thank all hon. Members, and especially the hon. Member for Jarrow, for their personal contributions to this debate.

Uber: Supreme Court Ruling

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I thank my hon. Friend, and join him in taking this opportunity to thank all the transport workers and taxi drivers—whether they are black cab drivers, private hire drivers, or indeed Uber drivers—who have been taking people around throughout all of this. I speak to them on a regular basis when, on occasion, I have required a cab to come back from work, and they are in a difficult position. I am wishing them well as we start to reopen the economy.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP) [V]]

My colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) introduced a Bill to give gig economy workers the rights they have just won in court. This was ignored, as has been my Bill banning the Dickensian practice of fire and rehire, which both the Minister and the Prime Minister have termed unacceptable. Can the Minister tell us when he will report to the House on ACAS’s work on fire and rehire? Does he not agree that the phrases “levelling up” and “one-nation Government” ring hollow when the Government keep blocking SNP-sponsored protections for workers?

[Paul Scully]

We will respond to the fire and rehire Bill when it actually comes through the parliamentary process, but ACAS has completed its work and shared its insights with officials at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It conducted an independent, impartial fact-finding exercise with stakeholders, making sure there was confidentiality so that we could have frank and honest discussions. We will communicate our response to those findings in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

The Government have sought to engage constructively with the devolved Administrations throughout the passage of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. The recent fruits of that continuing commitment include several amendments tabled by the Government strengthening a role for the devolved Administrations.

[Gavin Newlands]

Of course, Rolls-Royce operates its own internal market in which plant is often set against plant, but more and more it relies on third-party suppliers rather than on in-house manufacture. Inchinnan has already seen some 700 jobs go, and despite favourable production stats, we now know that there will be further redundancies, with the aero shafts line closing and work being transferred to Derby, as well as other UK Rolls-Royce jobs being offshored to Spain. The Scottish Government’s Rolls-Royce working group was set up to protect jobs at Inchinnan. If the Government’s power-grabbing Bill is passed, will the Minister ensure that the Government will work with the Scottish Government to protect Scottish Rolls-Royce jobs?

[Paul Scully]

The hon. Gentleman talks about grabbing powers back, but Scotland will be gaining powers in more than 100 areas that are at the moment controlled by the EU. Of course we will continue to work with important industries such as the aerospace sector and with companies such as Rolls-Royce to protect jobs.

Covid-19: Employment Rights

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Westminster Hall

[Paul Scully]

The reason why I am limiting interventions is that I want to leave the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North time at the end of the debate to sum up. I will clearly cover fire and rehire in a second.

Before doing so, I want to look at just some of the ways in which we have wrapped our arms around the economy and around businesses and employees. We have done that through the furlough scheme, which has allowed 1.2 million employers across the UK to furlough 9.6 million jobs. As we have heard, that scheme has been extended to the spring. With regard to the self-employment income support scheme, there is an increase under the third instalment of the grant, covering November to January.

It is also important that we help to get people, and particularly young people, back into work; we have heard about that from other hon. Members today. That is why, as we have announced, more than 19,000 jobs have been created so far through the kickstarter scheme, helping young people from across the country into the workplace and into a variety of sectors. In addition, 1.3 million businesses have had a Government-guaranteed loan to support their cash flow through the British Business Bank. That is delivering £8 billion to more than 98,000 SMEs—something close to my heart.

The hon. Gentleman talked about fire and rehire tactics. A key aspect of building back better is to continue championing a flexible and dynamic labour market, which gives employers the confidence to retain and hire staff, while maintaining a framework that protects individuals. For those who, sadly, lose their jobs, clear laws about unfair dismissal will ensure that their rights are protected. We have tightened the protections throughout the covid-19 pandemic. For example, we have made sure that statutory redundancy pay, statutory notice pay and unfair dismissal compensation are based on a furloughed employee’s normal pay rather than furlough pay. People who, sadly, are made redundant will receive the same level of financial compensation as they would if they had not been furloughed.

To understand better the issues in relation to fire and rehire, the Government are working with ACAS, and we are bringing together a number of roundtables with businesses, employee representatives and other bodies to discuss these issues in more detail. The House should be left in no doubt that this Government will always continue to stand behind workers and to stamp out unscrupulous practices where they occur.

We have responded swiftly and effectively to the pandemic.

[Gavin Newlands]

Will the Minister give way?

[Paul Scully]

I will come back to some of the hon. Gentleman’s points, but, yes, I will give way now.

[Gavin Newlands]

I am grateful, and I will keep my intervention brief. Can the Minister confirm, if he is having roundtable discussions about the practice of firing and rehiring, whether something might be brought forward in the employment Bill, when that Bill is eventually brought forward? If that is the case, will he work with me and others across the House to ensure that those provisions are good enough for the workers of this country?

[Paul Scully]

I will gladly work with the hon. Gentleman in continuing to discuss workers’ rights in this area and other areas. It is important that the employment Bill, when it does come, not only extends workers’ rights in the way that we talked about in our manifesto, but does so in a way that fully reflects the situation we are going through and the lessons learned from the pandemic.

Some hon. Members talked about pregnancy and maternity discrimination. That is not acceptable under any circumstances. We have continued to remind employers of their existing responsibilities under current legislation. Equalities legislation requires that employers must not discriminate in the workplace based on gender, pregnancy or maternity. Following the Government’s consultation in 2019, we are extending the redundancy protection period afforded to mothers on maternity leave to six months, once the new mother has returned to work, and to those taking adoption leave and shared parental leave.

We have taken steps to support new parents by passing emergency legislation that ensures that parents who are furloughed during the period, and are determined to be entitled to maternity, adoption and other family related statutory pay, do not lose out.

CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office Prosecutions

Debate between Paul Scully and Gavin Newlands

Monday 5th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

It is up to Sir Wyn Williams how he wants to frame that inquiry, but it is absolutely set up for sub-postmasters to have their voices heard and to report back within about a year.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP) [V]]

I thank the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and agree with what he said. This has been a dreadful affair during which neither the Post Office nor the Government have covered themselves in glory. A constituent of mine was sent to prison as a result of Horizon issues and was forced to sell their family home, leading to the breakdown of their marriage, yet in a letter to me the Government said they had no plans to prosecute anyone as a number of decision makers were involved. My constituent’s life is in tatters; who is going to be held responsible?

[Paul Scully]

On who is held responsible, let us wait for the response from Sir Wyn Williams and the independent inquiry. I know that, from Justice Fraser’s findings, some names have been recommended to the Crown Prosecution Service for it to discuss and investigate.