Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Goggins and Mark Durkan

Monday 18th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Goggins]

I am happy to agree with my right hon. Friend. That is a very important point. Let me put a rhetorical question to those who are not in the Chamber tonight, but who represent all the parties in Northern Ireland. SOCA was able to sit alongside the Police Service of Northern Ireland from 2006 onwards, and did an excellent job. Why should that work not be continued to ensure that those whose organised criminality poses a threat are dealt with, and dealt with properly?

[Mark Durkan]

My right hon. Friend will recall from the debate last week that some of us made clear that we had drawn attention for a long time to problems about which no one in the Northern Ireland Office, the Ministry of Justice or anywhere else had talked to us. Since people have talked to us, the negotiations have made progress. Let me also say that, unlike Sinn Fein, my party has never had any problem with the provisions relating to asset recovery. We want asset recovery to go the distance.

[Paul Goggins]

I warmly welcome what my hon. Friend has said. He will recall that last week I intervened on his speech to observe that it was strange that the Minister had not leapt to his feet and embarked on negotiations with him there and then, because he was clearly willing to discuss this matter. I urge the Home Secretary, in good faith, to talk to the parties in Northern Ireland and work with Northern Ireland Ministers to ensure that legislative consent is secured as soon as possible.

We discussed community orders at some length in Committee. I thank the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, who, along with the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), has had constructive discussions with the Restorative Justice Council, with me and with others about the merits of moving restorative justice to the mainstream of the criminal justice system. I know that the Minister shares that aim and aspiration, and I welcome amendment 110, which the Government tabled last Wednesday. We did not have time to debate it, but the substance is there, and that is important. I thank the Minister for the attention that he paid to the issue.

I hope that the amendment relating to women offenders, which was cruelly removed from the Bill in Committee, will be reinserted when the Bill returns to the House of Lords, because I think it important to focus on the needs of women offenders. The aim of working with any offender is to try to ensure that they do not reoffend and that they can re-establish their lives in a proper way. The Lords amendment was right to focus attention on the needs of women offenders and if that is re-inserted into the Bill, I urge Ministers to accept it as a positive move that they can work with.

May I also thank the Ministers who have responded to the debates on child neglect? Again, we did not have time to debate an amendment on that on Report, but the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice made positive assurances about continuing to discuss the matter. The law is very outdated and it is important that we try to modernise it in a way that works and protects our children. Again, I pay tribute to him for what he has done on that.

Finally, I think that the Home Secretary is wrong to bring the super-affirmative order proposal back. I say to her that the way in which this has been done is not acceptable. She told us on Second Reading that she had not made her mind up, the Minister in Committee never raised it there, except obliquely, and yet right at the end it is brought back in. There is a debate about who should lead on counter-terrorism, but I find it odd—it is nice to be able to say this to her personally, as I said it the other day when she was not here—that this Home Secretary told us that to extend pre-charge detention beyond 14 days and to get the enhanced terrorism prevention and investigation measures we had to have fresh primary legislation, but to change the lead responsibility for counter-terrorism we need only secondary legislation. I ask her to reflect on that again. I hope that their lordships will take that measure out of the Bill again, and I urge her to think carefully before she moves to try to put it in.

Let me end by saying to the Home Secretary, to her colleagues and certainly to my Front-Bench colleagues that they have done a fine job in leading this difficult and complex Bill to the conclusion that we have reached tonight.

Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Goggins and Mark Durkan

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Goggins]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that assurance. It is timely to pay tribute to David Ford, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, who has done a superb job since devolution and who is, even now, looking at and trying to deal with the risks that may occur if consent is not given to these provisions. It does not come as a surprise to me at all to know that he is trying to plug the gaps in these provisions. The Minister, however, is the Minister responsible for the NCA and for CEOP, so that Minister has to offer us some reassurances.

My last point is about the relationship between the NCA and the Northern Ireland Policing Board. The hon. Member for East Antrim made the point that when he was a member of the Policing Board it was important to establish what the relationship was between a UK-wide body and the Northern Ireland Policing Board. I remember going, as the Minister responsible for policing in Northern Ireland, to the Policing Board—I did that once a year—for a formal session on organised crime. I would take with me senior SOCA officers, so that the Policing Board could ask them questions and get to the bottom of certain issues. We were as open as we possibly could be, even though there was no formal requirement for accountability. That was the spirit in which we operated. What will happen now? If the NCA is to have no formal relationship in Northern Ireland, the danger is that such discussions, formal and informal, will cease to happen. Yet the NCA will still have responsibilities for customs and immigration in Northern Ireland. There will be a loss of communication and dialogue about those and other important issues.

There is a huge agenda here. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer us some reassurance about the urgency with which he is dealing with these matters and the negotiations that need to take place, and that he will respond in detail to the points that I, and others, have raised. There are continuing and serious differences of opinion in Northern Ireland, which must be respected and worked through in a democratic way, but surely there should be absolute unanimity when it comes to the need to combat organised crime and the awful evil that it brings. That, at least, should be a matter of absolute consensus between the politicians of Northern Ireland.

[Mark Durkan]

Let me begin by saying that if the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) presses amendments 95 and 102 to a Division, my colleagues and I will vote for them. My name is also attached to those amendments.

I fully understand and support what the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said about new clause 3. I have a particular and positive regard for the principle contained in subsection (2), which relates to the Chief Constable of the PSNI, but the wider issues raised by the new clause are also important, and I share the concern that was expressed about them by the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and others.

Like others, I find it regrettable that, in new schedule 1, we have a clumsy legislative provision that precludes functions for the time being, but provides for them to be introduced later by order, subject to other agreements. That proves that time was not used properly to secure those agreements. I do not believe that agreement on such matters is impossible. The discussions have been positive and practical rather than intractable. It is not a question of people trying to play politics, which some people unworthily accused us of doing some time ago. The character of the discussions with the Minister and his officials, and indeed the constructive role of the Minister’s special adviser, has been entirely positive. No one is saying, “Because this is coming from England, we want nothing to do with it.” There is no “green against green” competition. That is certainly not the SDLP’s position.

As I said in an intervention, some of us raised issues in relation to this Bill, and similar but different issues in relation to the Justice and Security Bill. We pointed out that there would be implications and complications when it came to the interface with, and the impact on, Northern Ireland and the Patten architecture. We cannot throw in new fixtures and fittings that are UK-wide, or even Northern Ireland-specific, and say that some of them do not affect the Patten architecture, if their character does affect it, or possibly affects it. When it comes to such matters as legislative consent motions, members of my party—as conscientious legislators both here and in the Assembly—must ask ourselves whether we have fully understood the implications, and assured ourselves that the results of these legislative changes will be positive. Are we persuaded that they will add to the fighting and the reducing of crime, but will not cause any difficulties in relation to the policing ethos, the upholding of the Patten principles and the new start to policing?

That is something we have consistently done. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and I have had many discussions about the whole issue of national security—about the re-routeing of certain responsibilities and balances of interest, and about the changes that were made in the context of the St Andrews agreement, which took some of the Patten accountability and the Patten complaints process out of some of the purview of national security.

We opposed that. We had worked hard to ensure that the issue of policing would be addressed in the negotiations for the Good Friday agreement when no other party would address it, and we had ensured that an international commission was set up. Having done that, and having helped to drive the Patten reform programme, we were not going to say, “That does not matter. We never really cared about those principles. It was purely ephemeral.” When we saw measures relating to national security that we thought might provide a way of getting around or undermining Patten, we registered our concern about them, and we must ensure that that does not happen in the case of the National Crime Agency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Durkan]

The hon. Lady’s point about the discussions and modifications that have already been made proves that many of us have raised valid concerns. When they are validly accommodated, we accept that, and we will want to raise any further outstanding concerns.

What would have happened if we had not raised our misgivings? For a long time people were saying, “That’s just an SDLP hobby-horse.” For instance, it was certainly said that I was still hung up on all the stuff about MI5 and so forth. It was said that we had too much emotional and intellectual capital invested in the Patten reforms, and that we had a hang-up. Latterly, Sinn Fein seemed to realise some of the issues as well, but it is not a matter of them trying to outflank us, or us trying outflank them. We, as parties, have a duty.

We have made our own contributions and decisions about the new policing dispensation. If we are saying that assurances are in place and policing in Northern Ireland both now and in the future is different from the historical policing dispensation, we have to show that that will continue to be the case, and that it is not being got around by the lateral legislation and policing arrangements being produced by the Government here.

We have the NCA taking over from SOCA. As the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, we agreed with, and came to terms with, some of the SOCA arrangements and the safeguards in relation to it. Then the NCA came along, and it cannot be the case that parties will just say, “Whatever other changes you at Westminster want, and whatever you’re having yourself, we’ll just take it and we won’t look at what difference it makes to us.” We need to be reassured.

Time should have been taken to address this matter. This is not a criticism of the Minister or anyone else; it might be to do with how legislative consent motions are handled, and how we get better joined-up scrutiny between a devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland and Westminster so we are not left in the current clumsy situation, which is not just the case in relation to this Bill. Sometimes, legislative consent motions come before the Assembly long after a Bill has passed through this place. Introducing such motions earlier might give the Assembly more influence on the form of the legislation or the sensitivities that need to be taken into account. There are lessons to be learned at the procedural level for all of us, therefore.

I am not trying to point a finger at the devolved Minister or anybody else. As others have said, however, these issues were raised with Northern Ireland Office Ministers early last year, and they were asked, “What are you doing through conversations with the Home Office and devolved interests to make sure these issues are being well accommodated?” They did not seem to know, or to want to know, what we were talking about.

[Paul Goggins]

I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman and his party for all the risks they have taken down the years in relation to policing. They have often been willing to become members of the Policing Board and other bodies, which have put policing at the heart of the community for everybody. The longer I listen to his speech, the more I hear that there is an issue of principle that has to be respected, and I agree with that, but there is also an issue about time, and there has been insufficient time to have the detailed discussions needed. I am amazed the Minister has not leapt to his feet to intervene to offer the hon. Gentleman discussions very soon to resolve this whole matter as quickly as possible.

[Mark Durkan]

I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman says. We have mentioned some of the discussions that have taken place involving different parties and the Minister and his officials. Some of them have also involved the director of the NCA, and I understand that he came away with a new appreciation about how the Policing Board accountability arrangements worked. He said no police agency at any level could be expected to be involved in accountability in such a way, only to find that senior Police Service of Northern Ireland officers said, “Well, we are, and it works.” A fuller conversation would have been better, therefore, and the relevant Westminster Ministers should have been involved in those discussions earlier, rather than leaving it to everybody else.

Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Goggins and Mark Durkan

Monday 14th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I join other hon. Members in welcoming clause 38 as a sensible, proportionate adjustment with regard to public order. Clause 29, which the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has touched on, would remove the offence of scandalising the judiciary in England and Wales. However, the change is being made because a Member of this House found themselves cited on exactly that charge in the courts of Northern Ireland, so the issue is not being addressed where the problem arose. Will the Minister clarify whether, when and if the Northern Ireland Assembly gets around to having a legislative consent motion, that consent could allow the Bill to be further amended so that the removal of the offence of scandalising the judiciary in Northern Ireland could be accommodated?

Other aspects of the Bill also relate to Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) has just come back into the Chamber at the wrong time, because he will hear from me the familiar refrain that he used to hear when he was security Minister for Northern Ireland. I think that, in his book, I and my party colleagues are Patten pedants. We are insistent on keeping to the precise architecture, thrust and spirit of the Patten policing reforms and to protecting the Patten dispensation. The previous Government did some injury to that as a result of moves to put national security policing in Northern Ireland in the hands of MI5. Those activities were moved beyond the purview of the accountable policing structures in Northern Ireland, such as the scrutiny undertaken by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland for the Northern Ireland Policing Board, which is where the ombudsman had been sensibly and deliberately placed.

The establishment of the National Crime Agency adds a further complication, because the Bill will create an additional police force and constables. Indeed, special constables will be created again in Northern Ireland. Having many years ago, courtesy of the civil rights movement, seen off the B Specials, we now face the potential appointment of NCA specials by the director general of the National Crime Agency. If we look at the Bill’s schedules, we will see that some people can be both NCA specials and Police Service of Northern Ireland officers, but that anything they do in one capacity cannot be cited in relation to anything they do in the other. The Bill provides that they can hold, coterminously, those two sets of constable powers, which will have serious implications for the Policing Board with regard to its key oversight role on policing. It will also create potential difficulties down the road for the police ombudsman in dealing with any complaints, and it means, presumably, that officers who are both NCA specials and PSNI officers will be subject to two separate complaint authorities.

[Paul Goggins]

My hon. Friend is making some important points that the Committee will need to consider in detail when the Bill is scrutinised line by line. Does he not agree that the most important thing is that, when a Serious Organised Crime Agency officer and, in future, an NCA officer acts with the powers of a constable in Northern Ireland, they should be as accountable to the police ombudsman as they would be if they were a police officer of Northern Ireland?

[Mark Durkan]

That is one of the things that has to be tested and clarified. If we look at some of the ousters that seem to be built into the schedules, we see that it appears that somebody cannot be cited in one capacity for something they do in another. That needs to be tested in Committee.

The Bill provides for a compulsion to be issued to the Northern Ireland Policing Board. There is obviously provision for there to be co-operation and engagement between the NCA and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, but there is also provision for directed assistance, which allows the Department of Justice to direct the Policing Board to provide particular assistance, whether or not the Policing Board wants to make that provision. It seems to me that the director of the National Crime Agency will be in a position almost to require the Department of Justice to, in turn, impose a requirement on the PSNI via the Policing Board. The Policing Board was given specific, deliberately assembled and properly protected powers in the Patten dispensation. It seems to me that those are being casually injured in these provisions.

Many people in Northern Ireland will judge the performance of the National Crime Agency on whether it improves on the work that has been undertaken by SOCA and the Organised Crime Task Force, which is linked in to HMRC, SOCA, the PSNI and the Garda Siochana and deals not least with the issues of fuel smuggling, drugs and waste trafficking. People will ask about the difference between the NCA and SOCA. We know that the NCA will have four command areas and a bigger brief. I suppose that it is like the old advert for Baxters soup: “The difference is in the thickness.” People will want to know whether the difference is in the effectiveness of the way in which the agency works. In Northern Ireland, many of us are also concerned about the effectiveness of its partnership and engagement with others, such as the PSNI and the oversight mechanisms. It seems to me that not enough sensitivity has been shown so far to the interests of the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Policing Board.

This is an example of a Bill that could have particular implications in Northern Ireland. Yet again, the Government tell us that there will be a legislative consent motion from the Assembly, but no legislative consent motion has been put. This is another example of there not being joined-up scrutiny between legislators in this Chamber and in the devolved Assembly. With the Welfare Reform Act 2012, we had a different device. That legislation has passed through Parliament and it is just assumed that a karaoke Bill will be taken through the Assembly, with people able to change very little. They can sing it in their own accent, but no significant details can be changed, and yet it appears on paper as though it is a Bill. The legislative consent motion from the Assembly for this Bill will probably come after it is done and dusted. There needs to be better, more joined-up scrutiny on such matters.

Finally, I join other hon. Members in expressing concern about clauses 34 and 36 in relation to immigration and visas.

Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Debate between Paul Goggins and Mark Durkan

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Paul Goggins]

I do not make light of the issues. If intelligence were shared with a coroner, but not with the family of the deceased, that would be a massive step, but it is better that we should know the cause of death rather than the whole thing remain a mystery. I am therefore grateful to my right hon. Friend for her intervention.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

My right hon. Friend will not be surprised to hear that I beg to differ strongly on that point. The idea that we can make a contribution to resolving issues of the past in Northern Ireland and all these inquests that have not taken place by creating a closed material procedure simply will not wash, not least in the light of the implications of the de Silva report and the issues for many families, not just the Finucane family, in relation to some of the revelations, never mind the material that was not disclosed by de Silva.

[Paul Goggins]

As ever, I warmly welcome the intervention of my hon. Friend, even though for some years we have disagreed on that point. It is good to know that he continues to make the point and that we continue to debate the issue. He may be interested in my next point which relates to the judicial review of a decision to revoke the licence of a convicted terrorist who has been released from prison, and where there is intelligence to suggest that that individual is again engaged in terrorist activity.

I shall refer to my specific experience in Northern Ireland. In 2008, I revoked the licence of a leading member of the Real IRA who was a convicted terrorist and had been allowed out of prison. Intelligence given to me made it perfectly clear that he was again involved in organising terrorist activity. That intelligence came from the Security Service. He did not like the fact that I revoked his licence and he went back to prison, but he challenged me for more than 12 months on that decision. In the end, the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. The outcome was that he had to be released into the community, though he was due to be released a few months after that date in any event.

The court made it clear that I had behaved perfectly reasonably and lawfully throughout, but it demanded that more of the information on which I made my decision should be given to the individual than the Security Service could possibly have allowed, so he walked free. I simply say to the Minister—and it will be interesting to see whether the Under-Secretary will comment on this in his winding-up speech—that the issue will not go away, especially as an increasing number of convicted terrorists will come out of prison in the foreseeable future. I suggest that this is something that needs to be looked at.

Finally, I agree that the closed material procedure used by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, and included in the Bill, is not a perfect procedure, but to work as best as it can it requires the co-operation and advocacy of the special advocates who represent claimants or defendants. I do not criticise special advocates because they express strong opinions, and I do not question their motives, but if Parliament decides that the provision of a closed material procedure is a proportionate response to the risks that we face, it is absolutely vital that special advocates, like the rest of us, do whatever they can to make the system work. I hope that the Under-Secretary will tell us that he is engaging in a new initiative with special advocates that will mean that they will strive to make sure that they can represent their clients in the best way possible. The Bill is an important further step. It was improved in the other place, and I am sure that it will be improved in Committee.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Paul Goggins and Mark Durkan

Monday 5th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Goggins]

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to people who have absconded from their control order, I think he will remember from our discussions in Committee that that relates principally to the very early days of control orders. From recollection, there has not been an abscondence for four years, and that related largely to foreign nationals who were the subject of control orders. However, he made a powerful point earlier on the need to ensure that people are properly trained to carry out surveillance.

Given the toxic mix that I described, on 11 August I raised with the Prime Minister the possibility of delaying this Bill—certainly some elements of it in relation to relocation. He said that he would look “carefully and closely” at what I said. I have written to him since. I have not yet had a reply but I hope that I will soon. I will look carefully at his argument if he, as the Minister earlier suggested he would, sticks to the Government’s current position, because I think that that is a risk too far.

I am happy to pay tribute to the principled position that the hon. Member for Cambridge holds and sticks to doggedly. It is different from the principled position that I hold but, because he is consistent it allows us to have a good debate. He accused me of using amendment 8 as a last-ditch attempt to keep control orders going. I humbly put it to him that that is not the case. I believe that the risks associated with the early introduction of this weakened legislation, in a year of great risk, are too great. I join hon. Members on both sides of the House when I put public safety above all else.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Listening to the debate and arguments about the comparative merits and demerits of TPIMs compared with control orders, and listening to the exchanges on whether a sunset clause for five years is better than annual review and renewal, I am reminded of what Talleyrand is meant to have said about Voltaire and Robespierre: when I think of either, I prefer the other. We are all caught in a situation where there are clearly problems with control orders, but we should be under no illusions: there will be serious problems with TPIMs too—problems of principle and of practice.

May I deal first with the sunset clause and the question of renewal? I have a lot of sympathy with the argument of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and others that the practice of Parliament in annual renewal and the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 has not exactly inspired huge confidence in the robustness of that challenge or the thoroughness of that review. But just because Parliament has perhaps had a habit of being derelict in its duty in relation to annual reviews, we do not have the right to dismiss the case for subjecting measures as exceptional as these are to annual review.

We are always told that one Parliament should not bind another. When it comes to exceptional measures, one Parliament simply should not discharge itself from due consideration. It is not enough for us to say, “If we go for the five-year sunset clause in the absence of annual reviews, Members such as the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and other concerned Members will be diligent enough to create opportunities for themselves by way of Adjournment debates or use of the Backbench Business Committee to subject these things to review.” There are things that we as a Parliament should hold in common responsibility. The due protection of civil liberty, alongside the due protection of public safety, are among them.

I accept that these measures—whether control orders or TPIMs—will be put through, but for exceptional measures that depart from the normal criminal law and give Executive power to use secret intelligence and to deploy strict controls on an individual’s freedom, this Parliament should not just say, “We are content to let that run for five years and see where we stand thereafter.” If Parliament is going to approve these measures, it should at least give itself the duty to look again in a year to see whether they are still needed in this form or whether there should be improvements.