Quilliam Foundation

Paul Goggins Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

You will realise from my dulcet tones, Mr Dobbin, that I am struggling with my voice this morning, but I hope at least to get to the end of my introductory remarks. It is good to see you in the Chair. This morning’s debate takes us to the heart of an important issue in which I know you are interested, as are many hon. Members on both sides of the House. I am pleased that so many from both sides are already present, and am particularly pleased to be joined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She speaks on these issues with considerable experience, as a former Minister with responsibility for police and counter-terrorism and a former Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. She learned a great deal in both those roles and I look forward to hearing her comments later.

This debate takes us to the heart of a complex and crucial issue, namely, the need to take on the extremist ideology that underpins the activities of those who are opposed to our society and seek to destroy it. I want to keep my remarks and the debate simple, because what is at stake right now is the future of an organisation that is playing a vital role within that debate. My straightforward request, which I seek to put as constructively as I can to the Minister, is that transitional funding of £150,000 be made available to the Quilliam organisation, which will fold in the next few days unless interim support is made available. Although I realise that a debate in Parliament is not the time for line-by-line negotiation of every aspect of an organisation’s budget, I hope that, by the debate’s conclusion, the Minister will have given us cause to hope that a resolution will be found to the problem and a way forward established.

Five weeks ago, the Prime Minister made an important speech at the Munich security conference. He argued that we need to differentiate between Islam—the world religion that teaches and practises a belief in peace and a loving God—and Islamist extremism, a political ideology which is opposed to western democracy and is linked to and underpins terrorist violence. He explained that radicalisation is a process that turns non-violent Islamists into people who are prepared to kill human beings, including themselves, in pursuit of their perverted ideology. The Prime Minister pointed out that vulnerable individuals become terrorists not overnight, but as a result of the constant pressure placed on them, whether in internet chat rooms, in prisons or, indeed, on university campuses. He went on to state that we need to work with Muslim-led organisations that are willing to confront that Islamist ideology, provided that, at the same time, they defend human rights, equality and integration. He said:

“So let us give voice to those followers of Islam in our own countries—the vast, often unheard majority—who despise the extremists and their worldview. Let us engage groups that share our aspirations.”

I agree very firmly with what the Prime Minister said.

Quilliam is a secular think-tank that was set up in 2008 by two former Islamist extremists, Ed Husain and Maajid Nawaz. Since then, it has become a unique centre of knowledge of such extremism. It is not an exaggeration to say that its research and networking have had at least as great an influence on the debate about Islamist extremism and terrorism as any other organisation in the UK. It has gained an international reputation for its work. It is interesting that, this very morning, an important conference on counter-terrorism will be addressed by the Minister for Security, Baroness Neville-Jones. Further down the agenda, a senior spokesperson from Quilliam will speak about the same issues and agenda as a senior Government Minister.

Controversy is, predictably enough, never far away from such an organisation. It has made enemies as well as friends. Those associated with Quilliam face considerable threats and abuse as a result of the stance that they take. Quilliam was initially funded by money from private donors in the Gulf. However, that money was withdrawn when Quilliam’s founders publicly criticised Yusuf al-Qaradawi and the use of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians. After that, Quilliam began to receive money from the Home Office and the Foreign Office under the Prevent programme. Quilliam always intended to become financially self-sufficient and was close to achieving private funding on two occasions, only to lose it at the last minute—first, as a result of the credit crunch, and secondly, because of the 2009 uprisings in the middle east.

The money given to Quilliam by the Government has had an immediate and visible impact. Quilliam is one of the few Muslim-led organisations willing to confront extremism directly, to name and shame extremist organisations, and to remain unequivocal in its defence of British values, including free speech, freedom of religion, gay rights and respect for others.

Quilliam has been the most vocal Muslim-led organisation to condemn, without equivocation, suicide bombings and acts of terrorism, and to challenge extremist groups in the United Kingdom. Its bold approach has paved the way for other Muslim groups throughout the United Kingdom to follow suit. By acting as a leader within Britain’s Muslim communities, Quilliam has encouraged other Muslim groups to initiate real debates about issues such as terrorism, religious belief and secularism.

A few days ago, for example, Quilliam issued a statement publicly defending Usama Hasan—a progressive London imam who received death threats for stating his belief in evolution—and criticising the total silence of the Muslim community in the face of the threats against him. The statement encouraged more than a dozen major British Muslim organisations to issue their own statements defending Hasan and his right to free speech.

Quilliam’s staff and supporters make regular media contributions to mainstream UK programmes as well as to specialist Islamic TV and radio outlets. Their statements demonstrate clearly that not all Muslims are extremists. They also challenge Islamist extremists within their own core constituency. In my experience, no other Muslim-led group in the UK does that more effectively.

As the middle east and Pakistan face ever greater turmoil, I believe that Quilliam can make an important contribution, both to our understanding of what is happening and the forces at work, and to the development of a narrative that counters the extremists. Quilliam can also help to challenge Islamist extremism here in the United Kingdom. It has already done much to influence the debate and get the message across to the British public that the vast majority of Muslims are also against extremism. There is particularly important work to do in that regard with young Muslims, who may be disillusioned, concerned about, and fed up with the world around them, and who may be attracted by the perverted ideology of the extremists. We have to make sure that that is countered, and organisations such as Quilliam are in an ideal position to do that.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have known for some time some of the people involved in Quilliam. My right hon. Friend has mentioned Pakistan, and one of the things that I have found valuable is a report published by Quilliam about a year ago about the radicalisation going on in Pakistan. The organisation was prepared to go to Pakistan and engage with young people in its universities, and to explain to them the realities of British Muslim life. Very few other organisations in this country are prepared to do that, and to do it without a destructive political agenda that feeds prejudices. Quilliam was challenging prejudices, which is in our national interest. It is, therefore, vital that we continue supporting Quilliam.

[Paul Goggins]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. He is a great authority on the issues and has an association with Quilliam—as he has said, he knows some of the people involved. He has raised an important issue. In fact, Quilliam has been involved in establishing a Facebook site called Khudi, which has 40,000 subscribers in Pakistan. There are young people listening to the liberal values and arguments being made through that Facebook page. Quilliam is taking the argument into parts of the world where we would find it impossible as individual politicians or, indeed, Governments to advance arguments that would be listened to with any credibility. I pay tribute to Quilliam for doing that work and thank my hon. Friend again for his intervention.

We will soon learn the conclusions that the coroner has reached in the 7/7 inquest. Whatever findings and recommendations she makes, we cannot escape the fact that those responsible for the bombs were a part of our community. We must ensure that there is no room for retreat into denial about extremism. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles, I was a Home Office Minister when the 7/7 bombs went off. In the months that followed, she and I travelled the length and breadth of the country in a effort to engage with the Muslim community and encourage it to face up to the minority in its midst that had adopted an extremist ideology and was intent on the destruction of our way of life and the values that underpin it.

I learned a great deal from those many encounters, but the most important lesson I learned was that it would not be me who could persuade young Muslims away from those who would try to radicalise them and turn them into extremists; it must be people within the wider Muslim community itself who do that work. Our job—whether as Ministers, other politicians who are interested in the issue or, indeed, non-governmental organisations—is to empower and encourage people within the Muslim community to do such work for themselves. That was the most important lesson I learned.

[Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)]

Like me, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman remembers sparring over this issue in relation to the Prevent strategy and the rights and wrongs thereof. However, the Quilliam Foundation is based on not just common sense, but the historical precedent of using those who were opposed to spread the message back to our opponents. That is a very valuable tool; it is not unique but it is an extraordinary tool. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that that must not be allowed to perish.

[Paul Goggins]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. He and I have sparred over many issues, including this one. I have a great measure of agreement with him when we debate such matters. Those who speak with not just knowledge, but experience do so with additional credibility and in a particularly powerful way. We cannot afford to lose the experience that is contained within the Quilliam Foundation. I hope that my remarks and arguments—and those that will be made by others later in the debate—will persuade Ministers not to give a blank cheque to the organisation, but to provide sufficient funding to enable it to survive the immediate future and provide its own sustainable funding in the long term.

I was describing the core of the important work that Quilliam does by supporting, encouraging and empowering those within the Muslim community to take this work forward for themselves. Again, I say that I am not asking for a blank cheque. Indeed, I support the strong argument that Quilliam should get out of Government funding in the longer term because that will add to its sense of independence, credibility and power within the Muslim community. In the long run, that is a sensible way forward, but we need an interim solution that will enable the organisation to survive these next few days and weeks.

Quilliam has not simply sat there and demanded money; it has taken difficult decisions in recent days to make its sustainability more likely. It has reduced staff numbers from 14 to six and has made eight staff redundant. Clearly, those are very painful decisions, but Quilliam regarded them as necessary in the circumstances. The small team that remains at Quilliam is working flat out on funding bids to charitable trusts and other funding organisations. It currently has a number of funding bids in but, as hon. Members know, charitable trusts do not deal with funding bids every day of the week; they have their own cycle and programme for deciding such things. Quilliam needs some time to allow those organisations to consider the bids and to respond, I hope, positively. Another important recent development has been the granting of charitable status to Quilliam in the United States. I hope that that will open up more avenues of potential financial support for it in the longer term.

I would also like to inform the Minister that Quilliam has actively been looking for smaller more affordable offices, which is also an important way of reducing the organisation’s overhead costs. Quilliam is not sitting there expecting a blank cheque from Government; it wants independent funding and it is prepared to reduce its costs. However, at the moment, it faces a real crisis. The request is simple enough. In December, Quilliam was told that there would be no more core funding in 2011-12. Three months is just not long enough for an organisation to move from core funding to project funding. We need a more flexible approach. A grant of £150,000 to cover the year ahead should be made. That is a reasonable investment in the kind of project I have been describing. After that, Government funds should be available only for specific projects that are agreed.

I hope that such an approach will find support from all parties this morning. It is certainly supported by Lord Carlile who, of course, is regarded by many as the expert in this area of public policy. He has made it clear in the media and personally to me that he supports having a transitional grant that would facilitate survival and then a path towards sustainable, independent funding. Quilliam is prepared to confront Islamist extremists. We should be prepared to ensure that it remains in business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. It is a delight to be involved in a debate that has none of the partisanship we would expect when talking about organisations’ funding.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) on securing the debate. I also congratulate other right hon. and hon. Members on their contributions, which they made with passion. They have shown their credibility and the experience they have gained in an individual capacity, although as the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, they also represent almost half the members of the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Minister would do well to take that experience on board. In that respect, I was impressed to hear that Lord Carlile, who has been the independent adjudicator on counter-terrorism matters, also supports Quilliam. As my right hon. Friend said, the Government have made the wrong decision—I fully understand why, given the cuts to the Home Office budget and the problems Ministers face—but they now have an opportunity to put things right.

I want to put on record my thanks to my right hon. Friends the Members for Wythenshawe and Sale East and for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) for the work they did as Ministers after 7/7. As a West Yorkshire MP, I am well aware of the mood—the shock and horror—in West Yorkshire when we found out that the bombers were from our area. There was great concern in communities, and I am grateful to Members for saying that the majority of Muslim people support the state and do not agree with the atrocities that have taken place.

[Paul Goggins]

My hon. Friend takes my mind back to the day I visited Bradford, when he and other colleagues helped to organise an important meeting with the Muslim community. Does he remember that the central focus of our discussion was concerns about the inability of us as outsiders, and indeed of Muslim leaders themselves, to communicate effectively with young people in the community? Is that not something that Quilliam can do very effectively?

[Mr Sutcliffe]

Very much so. That was one of the key points. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles was honourable enough to say that although we got lots of things right in Prevent, we also got lots of things wrong. Communication with the community was one of the things that was difficult; at one point, the community felt that it was under attack by the state and that we were describing it as the enemy, for want of a better term. The reality was that we needed to get into the community, and particularly to young people who felt isolated. Quilliam can do that.

What strikes me about the debate is that Quilliam has been acknowledged as an organisation that speaks its mind. In speaking its mind, however, it can also create enemies and problems, including with officials in Departments, although I do not mean that in a critical way—that is just the way things develop and operate.

As has been said, Quilliam has set about these issues and produced important research on a complex and controversial subject. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said, its research and reports on radicalisation on university campuses has been important. It has also done work in British mosques and the prison system. As a former Prisons Minister, I was interested in what Quilliam said about the radicalisation of prisoners.

Quilliam’s reports have been enlightening and important. Just yesterday, it produced a considered and thoughtful report on the situation in Libya, arguing for action by the international community. It has also done important work overseas, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) talked about the work that it did in Pakistan, challenging extremism and promoting a democratic culture. Although Quilliam is not universally popular, it is clear that many of its critics are apologists for radical Islamism.

I have listened to the debate with interest. Accepting Government funding can give rise to the thought that people are betraying themselves as Government stooges. If people rely only on Government funding and have no other funding, are they putting themselves in a difficult position? Such thoughts have undoubtedly alienated some in the Muslim community from Quilliam. It is not surprising that Quilliam is not universally popular, however, because it tackles controversial issues and it is not afraid to tell it like it is.

When we look at Prevent, it is right that we look at all the issues. This is not the time to argue about Government cuts or the timetable for the review of Prevent. However, we should recognise that Quilliam is a powerful organisation, which is supported by many Members of the House with expert knowledge of these issues. People could argue that this is special pleading, but it is special pleading for an organisation that could, as I said in an intervention on my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles, slip through the net if nothing happens; indeed, Quilliam is already making redundancies and looking at its finances.

Ministers face difficult decisions in good times and bad times; they have to deal with budgets and other issues, and they rely a lot on support from their officials. However, if decisions are not taken quickly in this case, Quilliam will be lost, and if it is, it will not be rediscovered, as Members have said. We cannot readily call on such expertise.

I hope that the Minister will answer the question posed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles in the spirit that she asked it. We need to know what is going on. Is this a political decision? Have Ministers reflected on the issue in light of the support for Quilliam? The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) is right to say that we have to look at every area of spend in these difficult times, but it is important that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I fear that the Government’s good intentions in reviewing Prevent could put an end to an organisation that has credibility and support in the UK and internationally. In that respect, I am heartened to hear that it has charity status in the US, which shows its willingness to go out and look for other funding. It is important that it retains credibility in terms of where it gets its funding. As has been said, it could get funding from many different organisations, but would that be the right funding for Quilliam, given the context of its work?

I hope that the Minister will reflect on the debate, which has been excellent, well-informed and non-partisan. I understand that difficult choices have to be made, but I hope we can make sure that this organisation does not slip through the net.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I am trying to come to that point. The principle we want to uphold is that Quilliam should be free to contribute to the wider debate, but not depend on Government funding to do so. The other think-tanks that have also published on radicalisation—including Demos, the Policy Exchange and the Centre for Social Cohesion—all operate on that basis. It is the way that all successful think-tanks need to operate. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) asked a reasonable question about whether think-tank work can contribute to countering radicalisation. That is done by a number of think-tanks. There is an important point of principle about whether think-tanks should continually depend on direct state funding for their core activities to continue their work year after year.

[Paul Goggins]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way: all of us who have been Ministers recognise that the timing of winding-up the debate is a fine art, and there is much ground to cover.

The Minister has recognised the contribution that Quilliam has made. He talked about an offer running into tens of thousands of pounds. We have argued for £150,000. If there is good will, a real interest in making sure that the organisation can survive, will the Minister agree to meet me and other colleagues to pursue that, to see if what may be a narrow gap can be closed?

[Damian Green]

I am always willing to meet the right hon. Gentleman. I know he met the Home Secretary yesterday, and the situation on the subject has not changed radically in the 12 hours since he met her.

Let me address the issues. The Foreign Office and the Home Office fund a number of small organisations, charities, civil society organisations and faith communities to deliver the Prevent programme, overseas and in this country. There are more than 130 such organisations. To protect them and their credibility we do not disclose their names. I am sure everyone will recognise that they are sometimes working in high-risk environments. Their credibility needs protection because research that appears to be British Government-inspired will inevitably have less credibility.

The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles asked about RICU. It has clearly received staff and resources from the Foreign Office, from the Department for Communities and Local Government and from the Home Office, recognising the challenge of producing a coherent narrative overseas, nationally and among local communities. I will write to her on the details.