Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

On this day, when we rightly reflect on our own intervention and our own responsibilities, it is important to remember that violence in Iraq did not begin in 2003. Among the Kurds in the north and the Shia in the south, the regime of Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of people.

The lessons that should be learned from the intervention are set out fully in the report, and they should be learned. It has also rightly been said that we should learn lessons from not having intervened in Syria, where there has been a humanitarian catastrophe. Does the Prime Minister agree that the conclusion from all the lessons learned should not be never to intervene? If that were the conclusion, it would result in the abandoning of oppressed people around the world, and the giving of a blank cheque to dictators and terrorist groups around the world.

[The Prime Minister]

I do agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I said in my statement that I thought there were lessons to learn but also lessons not to learn, and the lesson not to learn is that intervention is always wrong. There are occasions when it is right to intervene, because it is in the interests of our national security or because we are trying to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. We should be very clear about the fact that there have been occasions when we have not intervened and when we have seen almost as much chaos and difficulty as we are seeing in Syria.

EU Council

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right that when to trigger article 50 is a British decision. It is important to recognise that our European partners have concerns, too. The economic problems that we are currently suffering and may have more of are also affecting them. The Dutch Prime Minister said to me last night that he thought that his growth rate would be materially affected by the position in Britain and the uncertainty. Given that negotiations are, yes, hard work and hard graft, but they also rely on a certain amount of goodwill, we do not want to put too much of that goodwill at risk by how we proceed.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

With the pound going down 10% against the dollar, with our future trading position completely unknown, with the unity of the UK under threat and with appalling racist attacks happening on our streets, does the Prime Minister agree that, as a response to the referendum, the setting up of a unit in the Cabinet Office under the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin) is simply not up to the task? This is, after all, the greatest change in Britain’s position in the world since the end of the second world war.

[The Prime Minister]

First, let me agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the issue of racist attacks. We need to take urgent action, and I announced that at the Dispatch Box today during Prime Minister’s questions. In terms of the steps we need to take, there is, I believe, a limited amount that can be done before a new Prime Minister and a new Cabinet arrive, but we should not belittle that, because a lot of this is cold, hard facts about what the different alternatives are, and what the different costs and benefits are. There is a world of difference between a referendum campaign in which the leave side offered all sorts of things that went with the hypothetical new status and the real facts now of what those things look like. That is something that we need to see, and I think that the mechanisms that we are putting in place will help that to happen.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. He is right that the only legal way that has been set out to leave the EU is by triggering article 50. That is clearly what our partners want us to do, although not all of them believe that we have to do it immediately, which is why I believe we have some time to examine the right model we want to negotiate for and then to pull that trigger. As I understand it, that is the only legal way to get the job done.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

During the campaign, we heard quite a lot of criticism about politicians, elites and experts, so may I ask the Prime Minister about a promise made by the leave side just this morning? The hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) has said that he wants to maintain full access to the single market. Can the Prime Minister name a country that has full access to the single market that does not also have to accept the free movement of people?

[The Prime Minister]

The technical answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question is that there are no countries today that have full access to the single market without contributing to the budget or accepting the free movement of people. Where we should try to seek some cross-party agreement is that I think it is in all our interests, whatever the eventual decision, to make sure we are as close as possible economically to our friends and partners in the European Union. That is obviously going to have to be negotiated, but my view is—the closer, the better.

European Council

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 21st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

It is not remotely on the cards that that will happen for many, many years to come. Every country—including this country—has a veto at every stage. For example, the French have said that they will hold a referendum on Turkish membership of the EU, and 75% of the French public do not want Turkey to join. For many countries looking towards Europe, the process of applying, opening these chapters and going through things like press freedom, human rights, the independence of the judiciary and so on, has been a good and useful process, and that is how we should see it.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

Since the Bloomberg speech, the Prime Minister’s whole European strategy has been governed by trying to manage the divisions in his own party on that issue. Given the events of recent days, will he update the House on how that effort is going?

European Council

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I feel that very deeply. Having tried to build up the good will for a special status for Britain within the EU, which is what we have achieved, I do not believe that that good will would in any way be there were we to decide to leave. My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is why the safe option, the certain option, the option without risk is to stay in the reformed EU, rather than to take this leap in the dark.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

As the Prime Minister outlines the potentially grave consequences for the UK of leaving in terms of our economy and our security, we can perhaps all reflect on the wisdom of the leadership decisions that will lead to us perhaps facing those consequences in a few months’ time.

The side that wants to leave has put sovereignty and control at the heart of its argument. Does the Prime Minister agree that if we swap from a position where we are a decision-maker at the top table, we will be moving from a position of being a rule-maker to being a rule-taker, and that that is not sovereignty, it is not control and it is not the best future for the United Kingdom?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his question. I think it is time for a referendum. Too many treaties have passed through this House with no referendum, whether Maastricht under the Conservatives or Lisbon under Labour. I think that sapped people’s faith in our democracy and in our accountability. I particularly remember the moment when Tony Blair stood here and said, “Let battle be joined” and all the rest of it. We really thought a referendum was coming and then it was taken away. It is right to have this referendum, and we should not be frightened of asking the people and trusting the people.

I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that if we want to ask the question of how we can have greater control and greater influence, the answer is to be in there helping to make the rules, rather than outside simply taking the rules.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I argue that the red card proposal for national Parliaments is something new—it did not previously exist. Of course, it will take a lot of co-ordination between Parliaments, but where I think it is so much more powerful than the previous proposals, of yellow cards and what have you, is that it would be an absolute block. If we could get the right number of Parliaments together over an issue, the Council and the Commission would not go ahead with it. I think it goes alongside the subsidiarity test that takes place every year, getting Britain out of ever closer union, and reaffirming the sovereignty of Parliament as we have done and will do again. It is one more measure that demonstrates we believe in national Parliaments.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

There is a much broader case for continued UK membership of the EU beyond the four items in the Prime Minister’s negotiation based on jobs, our economic interest, our collective security and our place in the world. Does the Prime Minister accept that if we voted to leave the European Union but then found ourselves still having to accept all the rules of the single market, that would be to swap our position as a rule maker for that of being a rule taker? That is not control and that is not the right future for a great country such as the United Kingdom.

[The Prime Minister]

As ever, the right hon. Gentleman speaks very clearly and powerfully. Of course he is right. Much bigger arguments are going to take place over the coming months and I am not over-claiming about the four areas where we have made progress. I merely say that they relate to four of the things that most concern the British people about Europe and that we are some way down the road of fixing them. The point he makes about being a rule maker not a rule taker is absolutely vital. Britain is a major industrial economy with a huge car industry, a huge aerospace industry and a very important financial services industry. We need to make sure we are around the table making the rules, otherwise there is a danger that we are not just a rule taker but that the rules are made against us. That is what we need to avoid.

Syria

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Iran plays a large role in Syria. We have many differences with Iran’s policies and approach. As the first British Prime Minister to meet an Iranian President for 35 years, I have always been clear about what those differences are. I think across the House we can agree on the importance of Iran taking part in this political process. It is crucial that it is around the table for the Vienna process. We need the regional players to buy into the future of Syria.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

It is, of course, critical we learn the lessons from the past, but it is also critical we escape the trap that sees ISIL and their affiliates as always being a reaction to what we do. They are not children. They are adults who are fully and entirely responsible for what they do.

If we take the decision the Prime Minister is going to put before the House, it will not just extend our involvement, but extend our responsibility. What more can he say to convince the House and the country of his and his Government’s staying power on the diplomatic and political front, particularly at a time when big questions are being asked about Britain’s role in the world and how we see our place in the world?

[The Prime Minister]

I have said before that I think the right hon. Gentleman speaks with great clarity about this issue: about ISIL, the threat it poses and its own responsibility for its actions, rather than believing it is somehow a reaction to what we do. On what Britain can bring in terms of statecraft and resources, he will have seen the decision we have taken about our Foreign and Commonwealth Office and aid budgets. I think we have the ability to bring countries together, to play a big role in what is needed diplomatically, and to have a large wallet at the end of the process not just to look after refugees, vital though that is, but to help to rebuild the country once the war is over.

National Security and Defence

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend, with his considerable experience, is absolutely right to say this. We can talk about all the equipment in the world, but at the heart of it are men and women who are prepared to serve and put their lives on the line for us, and they should be looked after. I think when he looks through this SDSR, he will see we are committed to doing that. Indeed, what we have done with the military covenant—putting it on a legal footing, passing it into law, improving its terms every year—means there will be help for people for the rest of their lives.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

It is obviously right that our armed forces have both the equipment and personnel needed to protect our country and our people, but hard power and soft power go together, so may I press the Prime Minister further on the decision he is shortly to bring before the House about military action in Syria? Will he ensure that this is not just a decision for the House to say yes or no to the use of hard power—although, of course, it will be that—but that it is also a decision to use every diplomatic means we have, not to negotiate with ISIS but to forge a sustainable future for Syria thereafter?

[The Prime Minister]

I absolutely want to give that assurance. There is obviously the diplomatic work that is being done through the Vienna process to bring about a transition and political change in Syria. There is also the humanitarian side—Britain is the second largest aid donor in the world on a bilateral basis—to help Syrian refugees, and we will continue with that work. I very much see all these things as part of an overall strategy. There is not simply a plan to extend military action; there is a plan to step up in all of these areas.

G20 and Paris Attacks

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We keep talking with Security Council partners about potential resolutions that we could put forward on any number of issues to do with this overall problem of ISIL, Iraq and Syria. However, something to back the sort of military action we have spoken about in this House has not been possible up to now, because of the potential Russian veto. It is important for us to understand that it is possible to act within, and with the full backing of, international law without a Security Council resolution. Obviously, it is better in many ways to have a Security Council resolution as well, but we cannot outsource our national security to a Russian veto or, indeed, a veto by anybody else.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

May I ask the Prime Minister to reject the view that sees terrorist acts as always being a response or a reaction to what we in the west do? Does he agree that such an approach risks infantilising the terrorists and treating them like children, when the truth is that they are adults who are entirely responsible for what they do? No one forces them to kill innocent people in Paris or Beirut. Unless we are clear about that, we will fail even to understand the threat we face, let alone confront it and ultimately overcome it.

[The Prime Minister]

It is that sort of moral and intellectual clarity that is necessary in dealing with terrorists. I know there is something deep in all of us that wants to try to find an excuse, an explanation or an understanding, but sometimes the answer is staring us in the face. With ISIL, that is absolutely the case.

European Council

Debate between Pat McFadden and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

There is only one thing that would be better than that, and that would be if Mrs Bone were holding the pen. I think it is safe to say that I will keep hold of the pen myself.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

Further to that question, may I ask the Prime Minister a bit more about this letter? Up until now, he has not wanted to write down his negotiating agenda precisely because he knows that he cannot satisfy many of those sitting behind him. Has not this enforced change of tactics been dragged out of him by European allies who are increasingly frustrated by the vagueness of his demands and increasingly irritated by the narrowness of his focus while they are trying to cope with the day-to-day reality of the eurozone crisis and the urgency of the refugee crisis?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not recognise that picture at all. I want to set out our approach in a letter to the European Council, and Council President Donald Tusk is particularly keen to receive that letter because the Council wants to know that we are looking for change in the four areas we have raised and that that is the breadth of the negotiation. I think the right hon. Gentlemen, like some others, has been reading too many newspapers and reports that want to hype all this up into a great row with people being angry or dissatisfied. If there was a meeting like that, it was not the one I attended.