Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

This is the eighth or ninth time since devolution collapsed in Northern Ireland in January 2017 that we have had so-called emergency legislation, and the Bill is arguably the most important, wide-ranging piece of all that emergency legislation. As the Minister heard, there will of course be support for it, because it is necessary to facilitate the further good governance of public services in Northern Ireland, but it is a profoundly unsatisfactory process, both in general and in particular today—the way in which we are going about delivering legislation for Northern Ireland, and the way in which this piece of legislation has been brought forward.

In the first instance, I would say that the notion that the Bill is a piece of emergency legislation is in itself questionable. Of course it deals with some important matters, notably the appointment of people to the Policing Board and other boards in Northern Ireland, but Members ought to know that the Policing Board has been without its political members since March 2017. It has now been without its independent members for almost six months. If that is such an emergency, the Government seem slightly slow to respond. Equally, I would say that we all understand how the Buick ruling has undermined the status of civil servants and their security when taking important decisions, but that too was some months ago now, and I believe that that could have been dealt with in rather shorter order.

However, the really important point is not the question of the emergency, but the nature of the substance of the issues that we are dealing with today, because as several Members have suggested, the proposed changes are profound. It is everything short, if you like, of direct rule, but it gets as close to direct rule as we could have without calling it as much.

The guidance has been mentioned several times today. I think it was remiss of the Secretary of State to say that that guidance had been placed in the Library of the House, because it had not. It had been published online on the NIO website, alongside the legislation, but it was not referred to specifically in either the legislation or the notes to the legislation, so hon. Members such as myself who would have liked to be able to read that, as far as I am aware were unable to do so, unless we knew that it was on the website, which was not true in my case at least. I know that some people on the Front Bench and elsewhere, and perhaps the Chair of the Select Committee, and certainly some of the other political parties who were consulted, will have been given the guidance, but we were not given the guidance.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Owen Smith]

I would be delighted to give way to allow the Minister to explain.

[Mr Vara]

The guidance to the civil service was deposited in the Library on Monday, and it is also available today on the gov.uk website, from which other people in this Chamber were able to take copies. So, from our point of view, it was deposited on Monday. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take that at face value, and perhaps seek to retract some of the accusations that he has made in this direction.

[Owen Smith]

All I can say is that I went personally to the Library and asked the staff, and asked them again, and asked them to check; indeed, I also went to the Table Office and the Vote Office, and none of the people responsible in those offices said that they had a copy of the guidance. We then learned that it had been provided to other people, but only through the NIO website, from which I gather it was given to the Opposition Front-Bench team last week. I do not think that is satisfactory, not least because the substance of the guidance is so important—the issues that the legislation deals and does not deal with, the way in which the Secretary of State is offering guidance to civil servants, and some of the misunderstanding as to how that guidance will be provided on an ongoing basis are incredibly important.

I asked the Secretary of State earlier whether she could give me a specific example of a decision that might or might not be made by the Northern Irish civil service departments in the light of this guidance, and she could not do so. I suspect that that is because anyone who reads the guidance, as I now have, can see that you could drive a coach and horses through it. There are any number of instances that one could choose to identify in which it appears that decisions might be made in the public interest, or in order to improve wellbeing or economic performance in Northern Ireland, and, equally, there are many instances in which one might choose to interpret the legislation as inhibiting such decisions and actions.

The crucial distinction seems to involve the question of policy. However, I put it to the Minister that even if Northern Ireland civil servants cannot amend policy on an ongoing basis, one would assume that, as a corollary, they now have the capacity to make operational decisions that could be of enormous significance to citizens in Northern Ireland, relating to, perhaps, the closure of a hospital, school or some other vital facility.

The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) implied, at least, that the Secretary of State would have to provide further guidance in respect of those operational decisions that might be undertaken, but according to my reading of the legislation, that is not the case. My understanding is that the Secretary of State will publish, on a monthly basis, some reference to the decisions that have, potentially, been made, or, rather, civil servants will report to her on the decisions that they have made under the guidance, but there is no obligation on her to provide the House with details of any decisions that she is instructing civil servants to make—or objecting to their making—on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland.

That brings me to the principal point that I wish to make. We seem to be taking a very big step in further strengthening the hand of Northern Ireland civil servants to make important decisions. We have had practically no opportunity to scrutinise the guidance and to understand fully what it means—what its implications are not just for Northern Ireland, but for the devolved settlements across these islands. It seems to me that this is another example of the Government’s rushing through Northern Ireland legislation, characterising it as absolutely vital and urgent when in reality it deserves further scrutiny.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 9th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The families have the daily worry and concern of their loved ones going out to make sure that the rest of community can get about safely, and it is quite right that they too are recognised and acknowledged.

May I take this opportunity to welcome the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) to his post? I add my good wishes to his predecessor, the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock), who did an excellent job. I do not know what new role she has, but whatever it is, I am sure she will serve in it with equal diligence. I echo the hon. Gentleman’s comments about wanting the devolved Assembly to be up and running, which I think we all want in this House. It has been raised consistently by many Members, and I will come on to that later.

The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) spoke with his characteristic passion. He is right to speak about the additional funds for Northern Ireland pursuant to the confidence and supply agreement. It is important to recognise that that money will be spent for the entire community of Northern Ireland—all the people there—not on any particular category of people. He spoke about spending on education being flat, but there is actually a real-terms increase for education and health in the budget. I want to put that on the record.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) of course speaks from experience both on the Front Bench and in a previous life when he was involved in Northern Ireland matters. On his references to our being under direct rule, I want to make it absolutely clear that we are not. It is important to recognise that we have oversight at the moment, and it is our duty to ensure that there is proper governance. In pursuance of that duty, we are pushing through the legislation that is absolutely necessary to ensure good governance, which means proper public services. The money we are providing will ensure that those public services have the funding to go with them.

[Owen Smith]

I appreciate what the Minister has said, but will he explain to the House why the Government are so loth to move formally to having direct rule?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very good point, and I will tell him why. The last time we moved to direct rule, it lasted five years, and the time before that, it lasted 25 years. The move towards direct rule is a lot easier than the move out of direct rule. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, along with the Prime Minister, will therefore leave no stone unturned in trying to get a functioning Assembly. We need to remember the history.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

The right hon. Gentleman makes some very good points. I can confirm that the agreement reached in December in the joint report remains, and that Britain will do all that it can to ensure that all our industries, particularly fisheries, are maintained and that our fishermen and the industry are well looked after.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I am sure that one issue the Minister and the Secretary of State will have discussed with the political parties in Northern Ireland is the problems they see with a hard border returning in Ireland. What are those problems and what does the Minister suggest that we do to avoid them?

[Mr Vara]

The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and many others have made it absolutely clear that there will be no hard border.

[Owen Smith]

That is not much of an answer. The Government should acknowledge that the parties all think that there would be problems with a hard border, as do the Chief Constable, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the Irish Government and many Conservative Members. Should he not therefore acknowledge the problems and tell the House that the only way to avoid a hard border is for us to stay within the customs union and the single market?

[Mr Vara]

The people of Britain—England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales—collectively agreed to leave the single market and customs union, and that will be the case. As for the border, the December joint report made it absolutely clear that there will be no physical infrastructure and no hard border. There will be a frictionless border, and that is what is being negotiated and discussed.

Transitional State Pension Arrangements for Women

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

I will come on to the debate we had in 2011 later in my speech. If the hon. Lady wants to talk about previous Governments, may I gently remind her of the 13 years of Labour Government, with the 10 Pensions Ministers—one Minister had the job twice—and the nine Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions? In the interests of fairness, she, along with everyone else, might wish to acknowledge the limited work, if any, that was done during the 13 years of the Labour Government to put matters right, as they put it.

[Owen Smith]

The Minister says that the Labour Government did limited work. May I point out that, following a freedom of information request to the Government just a couple of weeks ago, it was conceded that Labour spent more than £5 million advertising the changes and sent out 800,000 letters? That was in stark contrast to the previous Tory Government, which, frankly, did damn all.

[Mr Vara]

If the hon. Gentleman is so proud of what the Labour Government did, why does he stand up to complain? They obviously did very little, and it must have had very little impact, because otherwise we would not be hearing the comments that Labour Members are making today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vara]

Yes, there are many people, including people in WASPI, who want to unravel the 1995 reforms. It is out there on the internet for people to see, so let us not try to deny the two options that are being debated out there. I said at the outset that I was going to talk about the substance of the matter, and I will talk about both those options.

[Owen Smith]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Vara]

I will give way in a moment, but I wish to continue.

If we unravel the 1995 pension reforms, as many people outside this place want us to do, it would cost £77 billion up to 2020-21, and the costs would continue to accrue after that period.

[Owen Smith]

The Minister repeats the calumny that the WASPI women are saying, “Do not equalise pensions, and get rid of the 1995 Act.” That is exactly what the Whips’ crib sheet says, but he knows it is not true. That was one comment made by one woman among the hundreds of thousands on Facebook. It is not what WASPI said to the Work and Pensions Committee, and it is not what it said in its petition. It is not true. Will he withdraw it?

[Mr Vara]

I am simply speaking from my personal experience of speaking to women. There are women who have said to me that they want the restoration of the 1995 rules. Colleagues in this House have had people in their surgeries speaking of 1995. The hon. Gentleman may not have had that—he may be out of touch, but the rest of us are not. When we talk of £77 billion or even £30 billion, we are not talking about a few million pounds or a few billion pounds. In both contexts, we are talking of tens of billions of pounds. That situation is simply not sustainable.

Universal Credit Work Allowance

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

Wednesday 6th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

It is important that the right hon. Gentleman and others take into account the need to consider the broader perspective: the raising of personal allowances; the introduction of the new living wage; the doubling of free childcare to 30 hours; tax-free childcare from early 2017; and, let us not forget, the fact that every time we fill up our tank with petrol there is a saving of £10 because of the freezing of the fuel duty. It is important to consider everything in a broader perspective, not the narrow perspective that we have heard from so many Opposition Members.

A number of speeches have been made today and, unfortunately, time simply does not allow me to address them all. I shall simply say that the right hon. Gentleman made a passionate contribution. I have huge respect for him and I am sorry that he is no longer on his party’s Front Bench. May I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Oliver Dowden), who made a learned contribution, clearly setting out the reasons why Labour’s proposals are simply not sustainable? My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) made a powerful contribution, telling us of her experiences growing up, which had the whole House in agreement with her.

This is an important subject and we need to recognise that the IFS has pointed out that no one on existing benefits or tax credits whose circumstances remain the same will lose out in cash terms as a direct result of being moved on to universal credit. These claimants will get transitional protection to avoid cash loss at the point of change. It is important to note that the only people who will be directly affected by the change to work allowances in April will be those already in work, the majority of whom will be single claimants without dependants. [Interruption.] The shadow Work and Pensions Secretary chunters away, but we have checked the Hansard record and found that he was wrong and we were right. Conservative Members await a withdrawal of his earlier comments, which we debated. We have checked Hansard and he should do likewise. For those people who are affected, we have been careful to put measures in place to ensure that they are fully supported. As well as the additional work coach support that these claimants will receive, we have increased the amount available through the flexible support fund to help people progress in work and increase their earnings.

Universal credit is a major reform of welfare that is designed to make sure that work always pays. Through the removal of the requirement to work 16 hours per week that exists in the tax credits system, people will see a financial benefit from every extra hour they work. The universal credit taper means that financial support is withdrawn at a consistent and predictable rate, helping claimants to understand clearly the advantages of work. The IFS has said that anyone being moved on to universal credit from tax credits will be protected—they will not be cash losers. Opposition Members need to take that on board—that comes from the IFS.

[Owen Smith]

rose—

[Mr Vara]

I will not give way.

It is also worth noting that universal credit is working: for every 100 jobseeker’s allowance claimants who find work, there are 113 universal credit claimants who do so. It is important to look at the bigger picture. This Government are moving Britain to a higher wage, lower tax and lower welfare society. Universal credit is fundamentally different to the legacy systems it replaces, and it must be recognised that there is no meaningful way of comparing an unreformed tax credit system with universal credit.

As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People highlighted at the start of the debate, Labour’s spending on in-work benefits went up by £22 billion, but the number of working people in poverty actually rose. The system we inherited from Labour was one where, for millions of people, being on welfare was a more attractive option than working or taking on more work.

Under Labour, there was a complete abdication of responsibility for managing working taxpayers’ money. Labour’s shambolic welfare policies led to a colossal welfare budget that was simply out of control, and the party has not changed. Page 47 of the 2015 Labour party manifesto said:

“To guarantee a decent social security system for the next generation, we need to keep costs under control.”

Yet when the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary was on the “Daily Politics” programme in December he said:

“We are campaigning for a…full reversal of universal credit...we will put that money back in if we were in power…I’m crystal clear about that.”

The presenter Jo Coburn challenged him—she had to challenge him three times. She said:

“Where will you get the money? The bill would go up under your proposal.”

The shadow Secretary’s reply was:

“Had I been Chancellor…I would have taken the extra £27 billion tax receipts.”

There we have it: the party that wants to continue taxing. That is why it is the party of welfare—it is the welfare party, not the labour party.

Welfare is much more than simply giving money to people and writing blank cheques; it is about removing the barriers that prevent people from finding work and progressing in work. It is about giving people the support they need to stand on their own two feet and live independently of the state. It is about creating the right incentives for people so that they can make the right choices for themselves and their families. That is what universal credit does, and it is working. It is incentivising work, renewing personal responsibility, and rewarding positive choices. Under this Government—this one nation Government—we will continue to deliver for all our citizens.

Question put.

Welfare Cap

Debate between Owen Smith and Shailesh Vara

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

If we are talking about embarrassment, perhaps it is the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), along with those on the Opposition Front Bench, who ought to be embarrassed. They ought to be embarrassed about the millions of people who lived in misery because they were forced to become unemployed. They ought to be embarrassed because, under Labour, the welfare cap was out of control. They ought to be pleased that this Government have the guts to take the difficult decisions to bring the welfare cap back under control.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

It is Christmas, and I think the Minister would like to know that his Government have won first prize for being the first Government ever to breach £1 trillion in welfare spending over five years. That is £130 billion more than the Labour Government spent in their last five years. You have won the prize!

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman speaks of Christmas spirit. In that spirit, perhaps he would like to apologise to the House on behalf of his party for the mess that it left us. Perhaps he would like to apologise to the people out there—yes, the public—who endured misery and ended up being unemployed under Labour’s policies. Perhaps he would like to apologise to the taxpayers for letting the welfare budget get completely out of control. As a result, we are having to take the tough decisions. [Interruption.] I am happy to give way to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) if he would like to apologise. [Interruption.] I have given him the opportunity to apologise but he would rather not do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

rose—

[Mr Vara]

I will give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity to apologise. He needs to apologise and I will give him that opportunity.

[Owen Smith]

I rise in the spirit of the intervention made by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) and to say that I absolutely welcome the decision by the Government today to breach the welfare cap in order to reverse-ferret on the cut for 3 million recipients of tax credits—low-wage workers right across Britain. It is an excellent thing the Government have done and we will be fully supportive of it. I hope that she will be supportive of us when we call for a similar reversal on universal credit work allowances.

[Mr Vara]

The House will have noted, as will the people who are watching at home, that still we have no apology.

The Government are determined to continue the work that we have done to date and to honour the mandate from the British people at the general election, so that we can tackle welfare dependency and fix the nation’s finances. Despite this short-term additional spending, we have made sure that, through our welfare reforms, the cap will be met later in this Parliament—by 2019-20. Let me be clear: the Government are committed to the welfare cap, and the Office for Budget Responsibility has confirmed that the cap is met in the medium term. The OBR also forecasts that welfare spending within the cap will fall as a proportion of GDP from 6% to 5% over the welfare cap period. That is a fall of 1%, in line with the 1% fall forecast at the summer Budget. By 2019-20, therefore, we will still achieve the £12 billion a year welfare savings that we said we would achieve—

[Owen Smith]

rose—

[Mr Vara]

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. I have given him plenty of opportunity to apologise, and he is not doing what the nation wants. If he is not going to do that, he needs to sit quietly and contemplate what policies his party is going to produce. On policies, it is worth noting that he, along with the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), actually supported the measure that introduced this cap, as did several other welfare Cabinet Ministers when Labour was in government, so it is ironic that they now seek to make cheap political points. As I say, by 2019-20 we will have achieved our £12 billion welfare savings. That is what we pledged at the election, that is what the public gave us a mandate for and that is exactly what we will deliver. We can do this because of the permanent savings that we have already made and the long-term reforms that we are making.

The simple fact is that Labour completely overspent on welfare during its 13 years in power. Under Labour, welfare spending went up by almost 60% and the benefits system cost every household an extra £3,000 a year. Spending on tax credits increased by 330%. That is £24 billion—

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

Let me start by wishing a very merry Christmas to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) and all the Ministers on the replete Front Bench, especially the Secretary of State who I had hoped would lead the debate today. Indeed, I had hoped that it might be the Chancellor, because I seem to recall—

[Mr Vara]

rose—

[Owen Smith]

I will certainly give way. I had not really started, but the hon. Gentleman can carry on.

[Mr Vara]

For the record, the reason I am addressing this debate is that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was chairing a Cabinet meeting, and he arrived after I had started speaking, and the record will show that.

[Owen Smith]

I was here in the Chamber, and I saw the Secretary of State arrive just before the Minister rose to speak. While we are on the subject, perhaps the Minister can clear up this matter. He said to us on Monday at Department for Work and Pensions questions that the Secretary of State had visited a food bank. We submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister asking when that had taken place. The interesting answer—in truth it was a slightly slippery answer—was that Ministers, not the Secretary of State, have attended lots of things, including food banks. I gather there is another question. Perhaps he could tell us when the Secretary of State went to a food bank. [Interruption.] Clearly, he does not want to say.

As I was saying before the Minister intervened on me, it was a year ago when, to a packed House, the Chancellor unveiled his latest wheeze, the welfare cap. He had a mile-wide smirk on his face like one of the famous cats from his Cheshire constituency. He was positively purring as he laid down what he thought would be a trap for a future Labour Chancellor. He said:

“The welfare cap marks an important moment in the development of the British welfare state…and ensures that never again can the costs spiral out of control”.—[Official Report, 26 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 374 and 381.]

He wanted Labour Members to stand up

“and say exactly what they think of the welfare cap, and tell us that they support it, and that they should have introduced it when they were in office. They look such a cheery bunch.”—[Official Report, 26 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 380.]

Well, we are cheery this afternoon, as we look for the soles of the feet of the Cheshire cat Chancellor who has carelessly and ignominiously fallen into his own welfare cat trap. It is less a case of being hoist by his own petard, as slipping on his own smirk. Where is he today to answer these questions? A year ago, he was insistent that it would be he who would be called to account in this House for the breach in the welfare cap. He said in the same debate:

“The charter makes clear what will happen if the welfare cap is breached. The Chancellor—

not the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions or one of his Ministers, but the Chancellor—

“must come to Parliament, account for the failure of public expenditure control, and set out the action that will be taken to address the breach.” —[Official Report, 26 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 380.]

But cometh the hour, there is no sign of the cat. He has disappeared. Even the smirk has disappeared.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

I would trust my shadow Ministers with my life. However, I thought that this was a very important subject. I thought that the welfare cap was one of those things that—what did I say earlier on?—was a great step forward in the British welfare state. I thought that the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions should respond, and I cannot understand for a minute why the right hon. Gentleman wanted his junior Minister to do this belittling debate. The shadow Chancellor is not here. He has disappeared, much like the Cheshire cat—better than that, like Macavity the cat.

[Mr Vara]

You mean the Chancellor.

[Owen Smith]

I know, okay, the Chancellor: the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), in Cheshire—the Cheshire cat—and given that he is rather like Macavity, rather than the Cheshire cat, I thought that I would give the House a treat. I read that there were no Etonians on the Front Bench among the new intake, and I was worried that the lack of classical education from which the Treasury Bench normally benefits might mean that the Macavity reference went over Ministers’ heads, so I brought a little book with me, and I shall read a section from it. [Interruption.] It is not Mao; it is T.S. Eliot’s collected poems. It gives us Macavity the mystery cat, who is, of course, the Chancellor:

there’s no one like Macavity…

he’s very tall and thin;

You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in—

I think that is the 5:2 diet—

He’s outwardly respectable

although

(They say he cheats at cards.)—

I bet he does—

And when the larder’s looted, or the jewel-case is rifled…

He always has an alibi, and one or two to spare:

At whatever time the deed took place—MACAVITY WASN’T THERE!

Macavity is not here today, is he? And the deed that he is ducking, of course, is this embarrassing, humiliating U-turn. The cap has been breached, and the Government have done it, of course, because of the spectacular, screeching U-turn on tax credits.