Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) Bill

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 24th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I do not like to comment on the motives of any political party. I would just like to say that, as someone who has been involved in Northern Ireland—I had three years as shadow Secretary of State and two years as the real Secretary of State—there is such good will among the populace across all parts of the community. I do not like talking about communities; I like talking about the whole community. They long for this to work, and there is real good will, but now there is utter frustration.

I am particularly exasperated because my great project, with representatives of four local parties—the fifth local party was also supportive—was to give Northern Ireland politicians the ability to set corporation tax, because we know that the Republic of Ireland’s determination, in the face of intense criticism from other major member states of the EU, to hold on to its right to set corporation tax has been the key to its success. The then Finance Minister in Dublin described it as the cornerstone of that success. As part of what was called the Azores agreement, it was vital for there to be a democratically elected institution in a devolved area to make that decision.

The current situation is exasperating for me, having got this measure through—having got complete unity among Northern Ireland parties and the support of almost all Northern Ireland business—and knowing the tremendous good it has done. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is sitting there and I have visited his constituency. Just over the border, in Letterkenny, an extraordinary amount of investment is being made because of the corporation tax rate there, yet so much of that could have gone to Londonderry if the rate had been set in Northern Ireland. This measure was one of the great achievements of the last coalition Government, and I pay full tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), who took it through during her time as Secretary of State. The powers are there, if only local politicians would grab the opportunity and establish an Executive.

Sadly, I must support this Bill; I totally endorse the comments of the Secretary of State and shadow Secretary of State that we would like to see an Executive set up. We had a successful election—that passed off—there are newly elected Members of the Legislative Assembly and they should be working with the institutions to set up a new Executive. Sadly, it is necessary to set a regional rate, but I hope we have to do it only temporarily. It is sensible for the Secretary of State to set a lengthier target of 29 June, and I wish him well on that, but if the elected local politicians still do not come to their senses by then I ask him to consider introducing legislation here on the issue of the cost of Stormont. Crudely, it costs about £1 million a month in salaries and expenses for MLAs. I know full well that the Northern Ireland public—

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman is about to move on to a subject he takes great interest in. When he was shadow Secretary of State, he promised to people—he went around Northern Ireland and he told this House—that when a Conservative Administration came into power he would deal with the cost of Sinn Féin MPs who are elected to this place, do not do any work and do what he is now going to go on to claim the MLAs are doing at Stormont. He did nothing about that. Will he now agree that if the Government are going to take steps at Stormont, they will need to take steps at Westminster as well to address the same problem that exists in relation to people who are elected to this House and who, voluntarily, do not do their job? For us on the Democratic Unionist party Benches, this will be a critical issue.

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman knows my position on this issue, but I was Secretary of State in a coalition Government and we now have a robust Conservative Government—

[Mr Dodds]

You did nothing.

[Mr Paterson]

I know Members do not like this, but I should say that there are very few tools left in the Secretary of State’s box and one is to put financial pressure on the political parties. [Interruption.] This may hurt the right hon. Gentleman’s party and it may hurt his competitors, but I have not heard anything from the other side as to why this should not be done. I have not heard a single member of the public in Northern Ireland criticise this. The Belfast Telegraph polled a significant number of people and a very large majority supported the idea. We still have time—even if this Bill goes through today, we will still have until 29 June; we will have had four months, or a third of a year. I do not think this approach is unfair, and I think it has huge support across Northern Ireland among the general public. I do not think it is unfair to say that if elected Members cannot get their act together after four months, they should cease to receive public money in salary and their staff should cease to receive public money in their salaries and costs.

[Mr Dodds]

So I take it the right hon. Gentleman will repeat the same call in relation to Members and their staff here who are in receipt of public money but do not do their jobs. Will he say that clearly to the Government Front-Bench team today?

[Mr Paterson]

I am a simple Back Bencher, but the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that I believe strongly that, in the words of Lady Boothroyd, as she now is, there is no such thing as “associate membership” of this House. She was exactly right on that. Those elected to this House should take their seats if they are to receive public money, but that does not get away from the point I am making, which is germane to this point about 29 June. I repeat it again: should elected Members not get their act together and form an Executive, the Government should consider taking powers to stop them getting salaries and expenses from the public purse, because that will put pressure on them and that is what the people of Northern Ireland will be looking for. In the light of that, I will support the Bill tonight. I regret very much, as does the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State, that we have come to this point, but it is a sensible measure to buy us more time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman. Shortly after we came to power, we reviewed the security position in Northern Ireland and recognised that, sadly, a small number of people were flouting the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland and trying to pursue their aims through violence. Working closely with the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable, we have worked out a programme, costing £200 million over the next four years, and I am pleased to say that the Chief Constable himself says we have the resources, the resilience and the commitment to meet the threat.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

In dealing with security, the Secretary of State will be aware that yesterday evening the PSNI revealed that, alongside other police forces in England, it had retained body parts and human tissue in 67 cases of suspicious and unexplained deaths without notifying the families of those possibly murdered. He will no doubt share my shock and will have sympathy with the relatives being told this terrible news today and in the coming days. What action does he now advocate taking, in co-operation with those in Northern Ireland, to deal with this serious issue?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising this matter. I entirely endorse his views and sympathise with those families who have heard this news. These are matters of the greatest sensitivity, and they must be very difficult for families to handle. I think we were all unaware that this material existed. It is most unfortunate that the news came out as it did. The Human Tissue Authority issued a direction to all state agencies, and the Association of Chief Police Officers advised chief constables. I talked to the Chief Constable about the matter this morning. As I understand it, the report was due to be published in good order on Monday, and he had prepared a careful plan to address the matter with each individual family in a most sensitive manner. We await the details of the report on Monday, but in the meantime the Chief Constable has assured me that he will have to accelerate his proposals to talk to the families.[Official Report, 16 May 2012, Vol. 545, c. 12MC.]

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s response. Given that this practice apparently occurred between 1960 and as late as 2005—it is now illegal, of course, under new legislation—will he and direct-rule Administrations of the past give full co-operation to any independent review or inquiry that might be set up?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point. We had all better wait to see what the report says, and then I will obviously discuss its implications with the Justice Minister David Ford and the Chief Constable. I suspect that most of the detail might be devolved, but I take onboard what the right hon. Gentleman says. This is a most difficult revelation, and we have to handle it with great sensitivity.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, in addition to there being enormous advantages and benefits for Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom itself has been strengthened and enriched by the contribution of the people of Northern Ireland—and, indeed, of the other constituent nations of the United Kingdom—not least through the willing and voluntary service of many generations of Ulstermen and women in Her Majesty’s forces?

[Mr Paterson]

I entirely endorse the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. Right across every sphere of national life, there are glorious examples—spectacularly so in golf this week—of individuals from Northern Ireland who have shone.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s endorsement of the Union of Northern Ireland and the rest of Great Britain. He rightly refers to the great sporting success of our golfers, and let us not forget our snooker player who won the world championship. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the opinion poll conducted in the highly respected Queen’s university survey, which showed that more than 80% of people wanted to stay within the United Kingdom. Will he now confirm to the House that he has no intention whatever of organising any kind of border poll in Northern Ireland, given the settled position of the people there and the levels of satisfaction with the present constitutional settlement?

[Mr Paterson]

I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman on that. As Secretary of State, I have the right to call a poll when I feel like it; I have an obligation to call a poll when there is a clear indication that there would be a vote for a united Ireland. Given that only 17.4% were in favour of that option, and the fact that I have received hardly any phone calls, e-mails or letters on the issue, I have no intention of calling a poll at the moment. We should concentrate on the economy and on building a shared future; that is the real priority for the people in Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

That is a little unfair. Within a couple of days, I went to talk to the Speaker of the Assembly to discuss with him how best to address this issue, and I am now going to write to the leaders of all the main parties to discuss with their representatives how to take it forward. The sad problem regarding the past is that there is no consensus that we have detected. My right hon. Friend the Minister and I have been right round Northern Ireland talking to all sorts of groups involved with the past. Sadly, there is no consensus, but I will write to the parties and we will keep talking. This is very much an issue that has to be sorted out with local parties as well.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

One thing on which the Secretary of State did take action in relation to the past was the Finucane issue. There was a widespread welcome in Northern Ireland for his decision to draw a line under that in the way that the Government did. Does he agree, therefore, that the decision of the Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, to come to Northern Ireland last week and seek to reopen this issue and launch an international campaign is deeply unhelpful to north-south relations and invites comparisons with his attitude towards neutering the Smithwick inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of Royal Ulster Constabulary officers?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The review into the Finucane case is going ahead. That is the decision of this Government, and we believe that it is the right one, as we inherited an impasse from the previous Government and called for an inquiry. We know that there are strong feelings in Dublin on this issue, and I have said privately and publicly that we recognise that they will state those differences publicly. I assure the right hon. Gentleman, however, that we will not let this issue in any way damage the excellent relations we have with the Government in Dublin.

[Mr Dodds]

I am very grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. On another issue, does he recognise that the decision by the Sinn Fein lord mayor of Belfast this week to refuse to hand out a Duke of Edinburgh award to a young man because he was an Army cadet is deeply unhelpful in terms of community relations; that it stands in stark contrast to the First Minister’s vision, set out on Saturday, of an inclusive, forward-looking Northern Ireland; and that Sinn Fein’s action has deeply disturbed people right across the community?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. The armed forces are a wonderful example of people from right across the community working together. I have on the wristband of the Royal Irish Regiment, which has representatives from right across Northern Ireland and the Republic and from 11 different nations. They set an example to us all of how we can work together. [Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for that question, and as she knows we have put in very significant extra resources, with £200 million going in over the next four years, backed by the Executive putting in a further £45 million. In discussions with the PSNI, we are determined to bear down on those groups, which are dangerous, and we are not complacent about them.

To answer the hon. Lady’s question directly, we have slowed down the increase in such activity which we saw when we came into office, but there is definitely more work to do, and none of us should underestimate the danger that that small number of people represent not just to the police, but to people going about their everyday business.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I endorse what the Secretary of State has already said about the lack of support from all parts for dissident groups in Northern Ireland, but on combating the dissident threat, what is he doing to strike at their source of funding and their raising of finances, particularly through illicit fuel laundering and other sources of revenue? What is happening to tackle that?

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that question, because it gives me an opportunity to make clear to the House the remarkable successes that the PSNI has pulled off, stopping fuel laundering and making some very significant arrests on illegal cigarettes. We should all remember the extraordinary level of co-operation that we now have between the PSNI and the Garda, working both sides of the border, because such activity is not restricted to the north.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s answer, but he will know that, as well as finance helping the dissident terrorists, one thing on which such people thrive is the hope that they are dictating the Government’s agenda. On that point, they have taken great comfort and solace from the fact that the Ministry of Defence decided not to allow a homecoming parade for the Royal Irish and the Irish Guards in Belfast. Will he continue his efforts and speak to the MOD about that issue, which has gone down very badly in all quarters of Northern Ireland, especially when such parades have been allowed elsewhere throughout the Province? Will he have a word with the Ministry of Defence on that?

Pat Finucane

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. He served as a Northern Ireland Minister and is aware of the sensitivities of issues in Northern Ireland. He is absolutely right to say that lawyers and politicians who stand up for unpopular, controversial views have every right to speak and every right to life. That is why this murder is shocking, and it is why we want to get to the truth and find out what happened.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I begin by welcoming the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) to his post as shadow Secretary of State, and I look forward to working with him. He has good experience of Northern Ireland and I am sure that we will have useful exchanges in the weeks and months ahead.

I welcome what the Secretary of State has said today in the House. The murder of Pat Finucane in my constituency was an atrocious, terrible, despicable crime. Every person involved, either in carrying out that murder or complicit in it, deserves to be brought to justice—let there be no mistake and equivalence on this issue. Does the Secretary of State accept that across Northern Ireland reasonable people on all sides agree that the idea of more costly, open-ended inquiries into such crimes is simply not reasonable, not least on the grounds of expense, but also because it has been proved that they do not bring closure and elevate certain crimes above others? He has already referred to the fact that more than 3,000 people have been murdered, 1,000 of them in the security forces. We owe it to all the victims to ensure that all murders are investigated, that their relatives are equally cherished and that there is justice for everyone. In going forward, an absolute assurance must be given for those who have died that the interests of terrorists and those who carried out terrorism are not elevated to the same status as those who protected communities and who were totally innocent.

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments and for welcoming our proposals, and I admired his wholehearted denunciation of this terrible crime. I agree with him; I think that the approach of the Historical Enquiries Team is correct. It is treating every one of these appalling deaths—3,268 deaths is a dreadful number—in an equal manner. In some cases, its attempts meet with great difficulty, as there is limited evidence—limited forensics, no DNA and so on. I admire the consistent record of satisfaction that the HET has given to the families who have received reports so far.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee for his remarks. As he will have seen over the weekend, the police investigation into those shocking scenes at Easter took its course, and in one case charges were laid against Marian McGlinchey. I took the decision to revoke her licence as she was charged under the Terrorism Act 2000. I spoke to the chief constable this morning. The police investigations continue, and I am confident that the PSNI will bring further charges when there is sufficient evidence.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Will the Secretary of State accept—I am sure he will—that the outcome of the recent Assembly and council elections in Northern Ireland showed a clear endorsement of moving Northern Ireland forward and a clear rejection of those who would use violence, whose philosophy is to wreck Stormont and drag us backwards? Will he give a clear commitment to work closely with the security forces, the police and the new Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland to protect society and do whatever is necessary to protect all of us from dissident terrorist threats?

[Mr Paterson]

I wholeheartedly endorse the right hon. Gentleman’s comments; there is absolutely no place for the pursuit of any political aim by physical violence in Northern Ireland. I congratulate all those who were elected to the Assembly and to the Executive. Obviously, on this particular issue, I congratulate David Ford, to whom I spoke this morning. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will keep up the very closest co-operation with the Stormont Executive on this issue.

[Mr Dodds]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s action on the revocation of the licence of Marian McGlinchey—or Marian Price, as she was known—as it sends out a clear signal to those who would threaten violence. Will the Secretary of State give us his assessment of the number of people he believes are involved in dissident terrorism? What is his assessment of the current level of police and other resources deployed to combat that threat?

[Mr Paterson]

I am not sure that the number of those involved is as important as their capability. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that these people are continuous in their efforts to attack not just the police, but completely innocent members of the general public who are going about their day-to-day business. Although these people are small in number, as we saw in the recent elections, they do have capability and we do not underestimate the threat. That is why we endorsed £50 million of spending last year, and we managed to negotiate an extraordinary settlement of a further £200 million over the next four years. We are absolutely determined to stand by Northern Ireland and do the right thing.

Murder of PC Ronan Kerr

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Monday 4th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee for his comments and for the Committee’s support on this issue. We are quite clear that there are now mechanisms for everyone in Northern Ireland to pursue their legitimate political ambitions by peaceful, democratic means. There is absolutely no excuse, and no place for violence that is in theory for a political cause.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Our sympathies and prayers are with the Kerr family at this terrible time. I spoke to Mrs Kerr yesterday in her family home. Her courage and bravery, and that of her son Ronan, stand in stark contrast to the cowardly callousness of those who murdered him. At this time, does the Secretary of State agree that the best answer, as I said at Prime Minister’s questions only last Wednesday, is for the people of Northern Ireland to stand together, as they are standing together, as one community, to reject these men of violence, and to keep Northern Ireland moving forward? That is the clear, united voice coming from Northern Ireland and this House today, and Ronan’s death will not be in vain.

[Mr Paterson]

I wholeheartedly concur with the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. For Mrs Kerr, yesterday afternoon, under those circumstances, on mother’s day, to welcome politicians to her house and to come out after that to make the statement that she made, was a quite remarkable moment. We all owe it to her to do exactly as the right hon. Gentleman says—to rally round together. I encourage everyone to participate, campaign and vote in the coming elections in Northern Ireland, to show that that is the way for Northern Ireland to progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to remind the House of that. We have a worse deficit than Ireland or Greece, yet our interest rates are considerably lower. That is thanks to the robust measures that the coalition Government have taken to enable us to recover from the wreckage left behind by the previous Government.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that the very high price of petrol and diesel in Northern Ireland—the highest in the United Kingdom—is having a severe impact on the living standards of families and the viability of businesses? In his discussions with the Chancellor yesterday and today, has he raised support for a fuel duty stabiliser and other measures to tackle this crippling problem, specifically in relation to Northern Ireland?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct to raise the issue of fuel costs in Northern Ireland. He will have to be patient and wait to hear what the Chancellor has to say in a few minutes, but I can tell him that the issue has been raised at the highest level.

[Mr Dodds]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. An issue that he can respond on is his talk of an enterprise zone for Northern Ireland. Will he elaborate on that and tell the House what specific measures he has in mind to bring about real change and boost competitiveness for Northern Ireland businesses? Has he looked at the specific issue of air passenger duty, which is having a detrimental effect on Northern Ireland compared with the Irish Republic?

[Mr Paterson]

I have been using the expression “enterprise zone” for three and a half years as a cover for looking at ways of reviving the private sector in Northern Ireland. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I am a convinced evangelist for the proposal to devolve corporation tax, to allow it to be lowered. The paper published tomorrow will also contain an amalgam of ideas from the Executive. On the issue of air passenger duty, he will also have to be a little more patient and wait for the Budget statement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

We are absolutely clear about that. It was part of the settlement made by the previous Government that, should there be a deterioration in the security position in Northern Ireland, the Government of the United Kingdom would be prepared to accept a bid, on security grounds, for resources from the contingency reserve. I repeat that emphatically today. I said that to the Justice Minister when I spoke to him this morning.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

In view of the recent revelations on the WikiLeaks website—which were confirmed by the former Irish Prime Minister, Bertie Ahern—that Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams had prior knowledge of the Northern bank robbery in 2003, can the Secretary of State confirm that co-operation will take place between the Garda and the PSNI, that a full investigation will take place, that no stone will be left unturned, and that the Historical Enquiries Team will be allowed to pursue this matter in the way that it is pursuing other cases in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I think that the answer was well put by the party leader at the British-Irish Council in the Isle of Man earlier this week. We are quite clear that those who have a past can explain for themselves. For the present, however, we are content for those who adhere to the Mitchell principles and pursue their legitimate political aims by peaceful democratic means to play a part in the process. The other issues that the right hon. Gentleman raised are matters of law and order; they are matters not for elected Members but for the police and the prosecuting authorities.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for that answer, as far as it goes. Of course, no one in the Chamber today was at the BIC meeting in the Isle of Man, so I would be grateful if the Secretary of State could elaborate on that point. Will he also make it clear that any resources that the Historical Enquiries Team needs to pursue these particular allegations will be forthcoming, and that the community in Northern Ireland can be assured of an equality of pursuit of allegations in Northern Ireland against dissident republicans and mainstream republicans if they were involved in terrorist activities, such as have been alleged not just by WikiLeaks but by the former Irish Prime Minister?

[Mr Paterson]

We are strong supporters of the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, who are looking at every one of the 3,268 deaths over the course of the troubles, and we are satisfied that they are absolutely colour-blind in approaching every one of these dreadful incidents. They have also been accredited with neutrality by European institutions, and we are happy that they should pursue their work, which is in the hands of the devolved Administration and financed locally. The Prime Minister and I have been on the record on many occasions, supporting the neutral work of the HET, because we know it does bring significant satisfaction to the families who have so far received reports.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I repeat that we are working extremely closely with the devolved Administration and the Dublin Government on bearing down on this threat, and we will do what is necessary.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge the deep anger among all sections of the community in Northern Ireland at the growing level of attacks by paramilitaries—with, indeed, activity on both sides, but particularly among dissident republicans? People are looking for action to be taken, and for co-operation between the agencies for which he is responsible and the Northern Ireland Executive to deal with this problem urgently.

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to make that comment. That is why we produced a substantial paper for the National Security Council, which was discussed at the highest level; and that is why we are working so closely with the devolved Administration and the Justice Minister, to whom I spoke this morning, and the Government in Dublin. We are determined to work at all levels to end this security problem.

[Mr Dodds]

I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, and acknowledge the work that he is doing in terms of the tier 1 level of threat assessment in Northern Ireland. However, the fact that the recent bomb find at East Midlands airport happened on the same day as a bomb find at Belfast City airport shows the level of threat against citizens right across the United Kingdom. Can we be assured that while the threat of al-Qaeda is a priority, the threat in Northern Ireland is also treated as a top priority?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to point out that these threats affect us all in the United Kingdom. That is why the threat from Northern Ireland has been placed in the No. 1 category—in tier 1.

Bloody Sunday Inquiry (Report)

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much for his kind comments. I pay tribute to his work over the years as Minister of State for Northern Ireland. He is still fondly remembered by the people there for all his good work.

I would like to take the opportunity to record my gratitude for the hard work of my officials and the Department in successfully managing the report’s publication. As the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) said, we built on some of the plans left by my predecessor. I met the families and discussed the matter in detail. The publication was a major international event, with 419 press passes issued for the Guildhall square alone. It is also right to draw hon. Members’ attention to other responses to the report that received less coverage, but which are none the less important in illustrating the broad acceptance that Lord Saville’s report received.

The leaders of the three main Protestant churches in Ireland made a symbolically important visit to the Bogside shortly after publication. The First Minister, Peter Robinson, publicly indicated his acceptance of Lord Saville’s findings. Senior military figures, including the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir David Richards, and the former Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Mike Jackson, joined the Prime Minister in his apology for the events of Bloody Sunday.

I want to make it absolutely clear, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did, that Bloody Sunday was not the defining story of the Army’s service in Northern Ireland. Between 1969 and 2007, more than 250,000 people served in Operation Banner—the longest continuous operation in British military history.

Our armed forces displayed immense courage, dedication and restraint in upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. We should not forget that more than 1,000 members of the security forces lost their lives, and many thousands more were injured, for that cause. Nor should we forget that the security situation in Northern Ireland had been deteriorating steadily since 1969. As Lord Saville outlines in volume I of the report, those who lost their lives included two RUC officers—Sergeant Peter Gilgunn and Constable David Montgomery were killed by the IRA three days before Bloody Sunday. They were the first police officers killed in the city during the troubles.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The point that the right hon. Gentleman is highlighting is extremely important. It is right to put on record our remembrance of, and gratitude for, the service and sacrifice of so many in the armed forces and police who served over the years in Northern Ireland and who continue to serve. That is why most of us are today wearing the poppy with pride.

May I ask the Secretary of State to reflect on this? Many people in Northern Ireland feel that while there is a very close focus on this one major incident, for the reasons he has outlined, they have received no justice and no attention for the murder of their loved one by the IRA or paramilitaries on all sides. They want to know what the Government will do to address that.

[Mr Paterson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for supporting my comments on the service of those in the security services. He is quite right that without them, the peace process would not have happened. We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to those who served in Northern Ireland. I will turn to the problems of resolving the past in a few moments, but I should point out now that the Historical Enquiries Team is working its way through 3,268 cases, which is valuable work.

The hurt and suffering that victims of the troubles from all parts of the community continue to feel must be recognised and acknowledged. Finding a way of dealing with the painful legacy of the past is one of the great challenges facing Northern Ireland today, as the right hon. Gentleman says. Our approach to the conclusions of reviews and reports on individual cases is clear. Where wrongdoing or failings by the state are clearly identified, the Government will accept responsibility and apologise. We have demonstrated that in our rapid responses to this report, the police ombudsman’s report on Claudy published in August, and to the Billy Wright inquiry report published in September.

More widely, there cannot, of course, be a Saville-type inquiry for each person killed during the troubles, but there are ongoing processes that are helping to provide some answers. As I just mentioned, the HET is investigating all 3,268 deaths during the troubles, including soldiers and police officers who lost their lives. The 86% satisfaction rate that the HET achieves among families who have received reports demonstrates the success it is having in helping to bring a measure of resolution.

The police ombudsman continues to investigate legacy cases and there are a number of ongoing inquests relating to deaths from the troubles. I welcome the very important work that the Northern Ireland Executive, the victims commissioners and many voluntary organisations are doing in providing health care and practical support to victims.

The future of those processes is in the hands of the devolved Administration, and for my part, I am fully supportive of the important and difficult work that the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims’ Remains continues to carry out. The Government’s views on new public inquiries are, of course, well known. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear, there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries. That policy is based not solely on financial calculation. Continuing to pick out selective cases to subject to a lengthy public inquiry is not a viable approach to dealing with the legacy of a conflict in which thousands of people from all parts of the community were killed.

Nor should we be under any illusion that public inquiries provide any guarantee of satisfaction for victims’ families. The Billy Wright inquiry report showed that even an inquiry lasting six years and costing £30 million can be accused of not having answered critical questions. Many commentators pointed out that that report recorded the panel’s regret that it had no explanation of how the guns used to murder Billy Wright were smuggled into the high security Maze prison.

Our position on new inquiries is clear, but we cannot simply shut down the past. I recognise that there are no easy answers. The previous Government’s consultation on the Eames-Bradley report ended in October 2009, and this Government swiftly published the responses to that consultation in July this year. The responses clearly showed that there is little consensus currently on a wider mechanism to address the past, but we have not let that stop us continuing to listen to the views of people in Northern Ireland and to find a way forward.

My hon. Friend the Northern Ireland Minister and I have met victims groups, community organisations, academics and politicians from all parts of the community to move forward the debate on this important issue. We will continue to do so. Many different views have been expressed, but one clear theme emerges from those discussions and from the experience of existing mechanisms such as the HET—namely, the desire of the families of victims of the troubles to understand those traumatic events better. Helping families and wider society to achieve that greater understanding and closure is vital, however difficult it may be. It will require leadership from all those involved in the events of the past 40 years in Westminster, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

I plan to continue exploring ideas on the contentious issues of the past over the coming months. Our approach will remain measured, sensitive and realistic. Lord Saville’s report closes a painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s troubled history. In so doing, it makes an important contribution to helping Northern Ireland to move forward to a genuinely shared future.

Billy Wright Inquiry

Debate between Owen Paterson and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 14th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. I have to remind him that we did not commission this inquiry and we did not set the terms. We received it yesterday afternoon and we have come straight to the House to publish it. The hon. Gentleman quite rightly lists the very severe criticisms of factors that led to the murder of Billy Wright in prison, which were serious failings that should not have happened to any British citizen in protective custody in a high-security prison. I have been open about that and I have sincerely apologised on behalf of the British Government. In fairness to ourselves, we have to take the report as commissioned and as it has been presented to us, and under those terms, the tribunal is quite clear that there has been no intent of collusion and no act that could be regarded as collusive either by commission or omission.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

For a citizen to be murdered while in the protective custody of Her Majesty’s Government is shocking and disgraceful. When one considers that that person was murdered as a result of actions and omissions by agencies of the state, it is all the more shocking and disgraceful. Clearly, there are still unanswered questions, not least about how firearms came to be in possession of the killer. As to the missing and destroyed files and documents referred to—they were destroyed by both the PSNI and by the Northern Ireland Prison Service—to what extent is the lack of those documents and files a contributory factor in the inability to get to the truth of what really happened on that day?

[Mr Paterson]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point—that it is most regrettable that a large number of documents were destroyed. It is wrong, and the report goes into some detail to show that a large amount of documentation was destroyed or lost. The report goes on to say, however, that nothing was found to suggest anything “sinister” in the document destruction. We should not forget that this was an inquiry into whether there was collusion. Did the British state do something deliberate or not do something by omission that led to the murder of Billy Wright? Having looked at more than 30,000 pages and after 152 days of hearings, the inquiry’s conclusion was that there was no collusion. We have to take the report as it has been presented to us.