Local Government and Social Care Funding

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Wednesday 24th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

If we are honest, every Government have some responsibility. The reductions started before 2010. I absolutely accept—[Interruption.] Let me address this point; I am trying to be straight with the hon. Gentleman. I think mistakes were made by the coalition Government in terms of the hit local government took during that period. The contrast between the support for the NHS by increasing investment in real terms and the cut to social care does not make sense, but that is what happened. I recognise that. It was above my pay grade, but I do not think it was the right decision to make. I hope that that is of some help to the hon. Gentleman.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Change UK)]

My right hon. Friend makes some really important points about the first 1,000 days of life, but equally there are similar arguments relating to the end of life. For example, too many people who need social care end up in a much more expensive place at the end of their life—in a hospital setting, where they do not want to be—for the want of the right investment in social care. Does he agree that we should apply the principle of investing to save across the whole of life?

[Norman Lamb]

I absolutely recognise and accept that point.

The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) intervened to challenge the point about spending under the coalition Government. There was a crisis in public finances in 2010 which did have to be addressed, but I do accept that the balance between social care and the NHS was not optimal. I also want to address other areas where the underinvestment or disinvestment in preventive services has borne a heavy cost.

The hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft), who has done very good work on youth violence—I have been part of the commission looking at that—made the point that many of the preventive services that are there, particularly during teenage years, to stop the risk of young people slipping into gang violence have been stripped away in many of the poorest communities. Again, the impact of that has, at least in part—it is very hard to judge cause and effect—been an increase in violence on our streets at the awful and dreadful cost to many of those affected by it.

I want to turn specifically to social care. It is worth reflecting on why social care is so important. It is there to give people the chance of a happy life and a good life, as far as they are able to enjoy that if they are struggling with a range of conditions. It is there to help people to remain independent in old age, to support people so that they do not end up needing the NHS, with an enormous impact on their wellbeing. One of the problems we face is that unless you or a family member experiences the need for social care, it is hidden from view. Very many families across our country simply do not see the impact of the underfunding of social care today, but it is very real. There are over 1 million older people who are not getting the care they need. As Simon Stevens, the chief executive of the NHS, has pointed out on many occasions, if people do not get social care support, that has an impact on the NHS. The funding settlement for the NHS simply will not work unless we address the under-resourcing of social care.

NHS Pay

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Dr Wollaston]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Look, for example, at the applications for nursing courses. Even though the number of applicants has gone down, it may not ultimately result in a loss of numbers entering nursing. Some of the applicants from that overall drop in numbers might have gone on to other courses, so we need to look at the bigger picture. In opting to look at the nursing workforce, the Health Committee is not saying in any way that other parts of the workforce are not important. The NHS is a team, but it would be difficult for us to report within a certain timeframe if we looked at the entire workforce. I have no doubt that we will look at other aspects of the workforce over the course of this Parliament. I assure the hon. Lady that we will not lose sight of the bigger picture and I hope that she will contribute to the inquiry.

We need to look at the big picture regarding the total budget for health and social care. The right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) has long made this point, and we have both made it clear that it is time for us to take a cross-party approach to sustainable funding for health and social care in the long term. I look forward to working with him on that over the course of this Parliament.

[Norman Lamb]

I totally agree with the hon. Lady and I am keen to continue working with her. Did she see the Independent Age survey that showed that well over 80% of Members of Parliament on both sides of the House agree that there needs to be a cross-party settlement for the future of the NHS and the care system?

[Dr Wollaston]

I welcome that and I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman over the coming months to try to encourage colleagues on both sides of the House, including the Front Benches, to agree to the idea. Next year is the 70th anniversary of the NHS, and I cannot think of anything more constructive we could do than to work across political parties in order to deliver sustainable long-term funding for health and social care.

I will bring my remarks to a close because I know that many hon. Members wish to speak. I look forward to hearing suggestions from colleagues in the House and outside this place about the points they would like the Health Committee’s inquiry into the nursing workforce to cover.

NHS and Social Care Funding

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Wednesday 11th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I will try to be mindful of those comments, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I follow the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), my colleague on the Health Committee. As always, she made thoughtful and thought-provoking comments, and I would like to endorse her points and expand on some of them.

First, I thank NHS and care staff. We have heard that they are facing unprecedented demand over the winter, but it is not just winter pressures that they face now—the pressures extend into the summer. As we have heard, that is not just about numbers but about the complexity of conditions and the frailty of those presenting in our accident and emergency departments. The Health Committee heard in its recent inquiry that the trusts that are most successful in getting close to the four-hour target are those that see it as an entire-system issue, and in which both health and care staff contribute to the effort, not as a tick-box exercise but because they recognise that it is fundamentally about patient safety and the quality of patients’ experiences. That is why the four-hour target matters, and the Secretary of State is right to endorse it.

The Secretary of State is also right that we sometimes need to be more nuanced about our targets and that he needs to be open to listening to what clinicians are telling him about how we can improve the way in which targets are applied. It would be a great shame if we in this House prevented those sensible discussions from taking place because of political furore. I urge him to continue to have them and to take advice and listen to clinicians about how we can improve the use of targets, but he is absolutely right in being clear that he will keep the four-hour target.

We must talk about this as a whole-system issue. Accident and emergency is a barometer of wider system pressures, as has been pointed out, and I want to focus my remarks on the integration of health and social care.

I agree with colleagues throughout the House who have called for a convention on reviewing funding as a whole-system issue. We have heard that next year is the 70th birthday of the NHS, and what could be a better present than politicians changing the debate and the way in which we talk about the funding of health and social care, so that we do so in a collaborative manner that works towards the right solution for our patients? The consequences of our not doing that would be profound for our constituents, who would not thank us for not being prepared to put aside party differences and work towards the right solution.

Ultimately, this issue is about a demographic change that we are simply not preparing for adequately. In the case of the pension age, we recognised that there had to be a different debate given the change in longevity. Over the decade to 2015, we saw a 31% increase in the number of people living to 85 and older. Of course, that is a cause for celebration, but there has not been a matching increase in disease-free life expectancy.

I welcome the Prime Minister’s focus on tackling inequality, but unfortunately we are not making sufficient progress on that, either. In her very first speech in the job, she talked about tackling the “burning injustice” of health inequality. We in this House have a role in doing that together in a consensual manner.

[Norman Lamb]

I very much agree with the hon. Lady. Does she share my welcome for the Prime Minister’s response today in which she stated that she was prepared to meet us and other Members of Parliament from across the House and my hope that it might start a more constructive approach?

[Dr Wollaston]

Absolutely. It was extraordinarily encouraging to hear the Prime Minister say that she was prepared to consider that and to meet Members from across the House. I urge colleagues who feel that this is a better way forward to sign up to it, speak to their party Whips and make it clear that it has widespread support.

NHS and Social Care Commission

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Wollaston]

In this place, we sometimes push issues into commissions, which debate them endlessly and come to no agreement. I would say the urgency of this issue demands that the leaders of all political parties sit down together and agree.

[Norman Lamb]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, and I promise not to keep intervening. I feel that there needs to be a process to which everybody is committed. If there is just a desire for the party leaders to co-operate, the temptation to score political points when a crisis comes along will be too great and it just will not happen. We need to bind people into such a process, and they must be prepared to commit to it.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his clarification. I agree that we are looking for a process to which everyone can commit. We are not looking for a commission that will go away and examine the problems. We know the issues, which have been set out in very stark terms. The King’s Fund’s excellent independent Barker commission set out the whole range of options. What we have always lacked is the political buy-in and determination to move forward. I would join in making a request for any process that will make that happen, but not for something that pushes it away for three years, because, as we all know, the closer we get to a general election, the more challenging it will be to have a genuine political agreement. It therefore needs to happen as rapidly as possible.

Childhood Obesity Strategy

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Thursday 21st January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning that. I was going to come on to that point and he has saved me from doing so. I completely agree that we must not forget the impact of sugar on children’s teeth. He will recognise that there are great health inequalities relating to that issue as well.

So how should we tackle this? I have spoken many times about a sugary drinks tax, but I recognise that that is not where the greatest gain lies when it comes to tackling childhood obesity. As the Minister will recognise from the evidence presented by Public Health England, price promotions will need to form an extraordinarily important part of the childhood obesity strategy if it is to be effective. It is a staggering fact that around 40% of what we spend on our consumption of food and drink at home is spent on price promotions. Unfortunately, however, they do not save us as much money as we assume. They encourage us to consume more. In British supermarkets, a huge number of those promotions relate to sugary and other unhealthy products. I call on the Government to tackle that as part of their strategy. We need a level playing field as we seek to rebalance price promotions, but that has to be done in a way that does not simply drive us towards promoting other products such as alcohol. We need to take a careful, evidence-based look at all this.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I am delighted that the hon. Lady is pursuing this issue. Has she looked at whether there could be a tax on the ingredient “sugar” in products, so that we create an incentive to reformulate, in order to reduce sugar content not just in fizzy drinks but across foods and drinks generally? Could that be a way to get the industry to start to think about the content of its food?

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point, which prompts me to address the issue of a sugary drinks tax. We looked at examples of where taxation can be applied across sugar more broadly, perhaps to incentivise reductions within reformulation, as some countries have done. However, we wanted to address the single biggest component of sugar in children’s diets, which is sugary drinks. The Committee recommended a sugary drinks tax rather than a wider sugar tax, and there are several reasons for doing that. First, we know that it works. Secondly, it addresses that point about health inequality.

Mexico introduced a 1 peso per litre tax on sugary drinks and by the end of the year the greatest reduction in use—17% by the end of the year—was among the highest consumers of sugary drinks. The tax drove a change in behaviour. The whole point of this sugary drinks tax is that nobody should have to pay it at all. To those who say it is regressive, I say no it is not; the regressive situation is the current one, where the greatest harms fall on the least advantaged in society. As we have seen with the plastic bag tax, the tax aims to nudge a change in behaviour among parents, with a simple price differential between a product that is full of sugar, and causes all the harms that we have heard about, including to children’s teeth, and an identical but sugar-free product—or, better still, water.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 3rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to open this debate on our report into child and adolescent mental health services. For the record, I am married to a full-time NHS adult forensic psychiatrist who is also the chair of the Westminster Parliamentary Liaison Committee for the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I thank the many organisations and individuals who have contributed to our report, my fellow Committee members and the Clerk of our Committee, David Lloyd for his exemplary leadership and work over the course this Parliament.

May I start by setting the scene? This report was launched in part because of the number of children and young people who were being admitted to hospitals many hundreds of miles from home when they were in mental health crisis and needing the highest level of support.

During the course of our inquiry, we identified serious and deeply ingrained problems with the commissioning and provision of child and adolescent mental health services, and we found that they ran throughout the whole system from prevention and early intervention services to in-patient services for the most vulnerable children and young people.

We welcomed the setting up by the Government of the Children and Young People’s Mental Health and Wellbeing Taskforce, and many of our recommendations were directed at that taskforce. I am sorry that it has not yet reported, but I understand that it is to report very shortly, and we look forward to seeing its recommendations. The taskforce knows that it is a matter not just of tweaking the CAMHS system but of fundamental change. I hope that it will clearly set out how that will be implemented. We have legislated for parity of esteem, we have written it into the NHS Mandate, but all that counts for nothing if it does not translate into better services for children and young people.

The key recommendation in our report is about the importance of prevention and early intervention. However, services cannot be planned without knowing the extent of the problem. It is a matter of great regret that the five-yearly prevalence survey was cancelled under the previous Government. That means that our data are 10 years out of date. I very much welcome the reinstatement of that survey. In his response, will the Minister give further details of the extent? I know that he has already announced that the funding has been identified, but many professionals are waiting to hear further detail about exactly what will be included. That would be very welcome.

While we wait for the prevalence data to appear—it would be nice to hear the expected time frame in which we will hear the results—we all acknowledge that there has been an alarming rise in the level of distress and need reported by all those who work in the field, including those in the voluntary sector, in teaching and in CAMHS. There are unprecedented levels of demand at a time when, unfortunately, 60% of local authorities that responded to a survey from YoungMinds report cuts or a freeze in their CAMHS budget. That is where the front line of prevention should be.

The compelling evidence that we heard throughout our report was that early intervention prevents children from presenting when they have become more unwell, so that is where we need to focus our resources. Clearly, the Government were right and everybody welcomes the investment in 50 extra beds in the areas of greatest need—some of which are in my area—but it costs around £25,000 a month for a child or young person to be treated in an in-patient setting. For every young person who is in one of those beds, we have to ask whether they would have needed to be admitted to hospital in the first place had those resources been properly directed to prevention services. We need double running. If we just keep investing in in-patient beds at the expense of prevention, we will fill those beds and there will be a demand for more.

I hope the Minister will recognise the need for double running so that we focus relentlessly on prevention and early intervention. As he will know, if we are looking at in-patients and admissions, the very last place that any young person should be at a time of mental health crisis is in a police cell. I pay tribute to all those who, over a number of years, have campaigned on that. The problem is not new. I am one of the few MPs—or perhaps not so few—who has been inside a police cell at night, because for many years I was a forensic medical examiner. It was always profoundly shocking to think that children as young as 12 or 13 across the west country were being taken into police cells under section 136 of the Mental Health Act 1983—an horrific experience.

It is sometimes an individual case that finally brings an unacceptable practice to an end. I pay tribute to Assistant Chief Constable Paul Netherton of Devon and Cornwall police for highlighting the awful case in Torbay of a child who was detained in a police cell, and I pay tribute to Chief Constable Shaun Sawyer because they have taken steps to bring the practice to an end. Although as a Committee we called for this to be a “never event” within the NHS, in effect the procedures that will be put in place will be equivalent. Finally, on this Government’s watch, we will see this unacceptable practice coming to an end. That is long overdue and very welcome.

In focusing on the need to keep that timely support for children and young people, I also hope that the taskforce will set out what can be done to address some of the perverse financial incentives in children and young people’s mental health services. For example, a child who is admitted to hospital no longer has to be funded by the clinical commissioning group—in other words, they are handed over to specialist commissioning— creating all sorts of inappropriate decision making in the system. It also means that children are more likely to be readmitted because there are no step-down services. Therefore, a focus on active intervention to try to prevent that admission and keep children at home is very important. I also look forward to hearing the taskforce’s recommendations on how that can be done consistently across the country, because another issue we raised was the extent of variation in practice.

I will now turn my attention to volunteers. If we are to retain a focus on the earliest intervention and prevention, we have to recognise the value of our volunteers. I would like to pay tribute to a number of volunteers in my constituency. I am a patron of Cool Recovery, a charity that provides mental health support to carers and those affected by mental health problems across south Devon. There are many such organisations working directly with young people. Representatives from Spiritulized, which supports young people in Kingsbridge, recently came to Parliament after being shortlisted for an award for the work it is doing in mental health first aid out in the community. In Brixham there is the Youth Genesis Trust and volunteers from The Edge. Work is also being done in schools. Representatives from South Devon college, which is based in my constituency, recently came to Parliament after it received an award for its work in student well-being and prevention of mental health problems.

Those organisations are reporting that both the demand for their services and the level of complexity have never been greater. Part of the reason for that, as the Minister will know, is the increasing waiting times for CAMHS. That means more young people are becoming much more unwell before being seen in the CAMHS setting. I hope that in his response he will be able to say exactly how we can balance that across the whole system. I very much welcome the investment in services for eating disorders and self-harm and early interventions in psychosis, and of course the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme. However, as he will know, fundamentally the issue comes down to funding. We will never achieve parity of esteem for mental health unless we address the funding inequality, with 6% of the mental health budget going to services for children and young people, and that budget itself is an inappropriately small slice of the overall funding pot for the NHS. How will we actually drive change in increasing funding?

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

I agree with everything my hon. Friend has said and very much welcome her Committee’s report. I agree on the need to address the funding issue. In particular, it is critical that we achieve what I call an equilibrium of rights to access between mental and physical health in order to address the awful problem on waiting times, and that must include children’s mental health services.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the Minister for that intervention. It is very welcome that we now have waiting time targets as a right for people with mental health problems, alongside those for people with physical health problems, but the challenge is not so much about the budget for children and young people’s mental health services, but what we take that from, because there are no areas of slack in the mental health budget, as he will know. I think that the mental health budget overall must achieve some parity. Again, if we look at prevention and the really small amounts of money, in relative terms, that are required to keep excellent voluntary services running in our communities, we see that it would be the greatest waste and tragedy to lose those vital services in our communities for the want of what are really quite small sums. When children, young people and voluntary services came to give evidence to our inquiry, we heard time and again that what they need is stable, long-term funding. They do not require a great deal of money, but they are currently limping from one short-term budget to another. Another issue raised was that if funding is available, it often gets directed to a new start-up project, not towards a project in the same community that may have proven value.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

HM Treasury’s costing demonstrates the limitations of data available nationally in estimating the potential costs of providing free personal care at the end of life. That is why the Department of Health is undertaking further work with stakeholders to develop an evidence base to inform the next spending review.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the Minister for that reply. He will know that most people want to be able to remain at home at the end of their lives, surrounded by the people they love, and I pay tribute to all the carers, volunteers and health professionals, including Rowcroft’s hospice at home, who help to make that possible. Sadly, he will also know that often the situation can break down because of the sheer exhaustion of caring for a loved one at the end of their life. Will he commit that the Government will consider the quality of care as well as the costs when considering introducing free end-of-life social care?

[Norman Lamb]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question and join her in paying tribute to the work of so many people: volunteers, loved ones and the professionals working in the community. The whole emphasis should be on ensuring that we respect people’s choice about where they want to be and that they get the best possible care. Later this week, the independent review of choice at the end of life will be published and I hope that it will inform discussions. I am completely with her in trying to ensure that we can achieve this.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Monday 2nd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

First, let me caution against sanctimony. This is not a new issue: under the previous Labour Government, children did at times end up in adult wards. That is highly undesirable—everyone recognises that—and we must do everything we can to prevent it, but please do not try to claim that this is an entirely new problem. It is not. The Government have significantly increased the number of beds available, so significantly more are available now than there were in the last decade. The hon. Lady says that she sees increasing numbers of children held in police cells, but let us have some honesty and accuracy in this debate. The number of children who end up in police cells is falling, not increasing. The crisis care concordat, published last February, set a commitment to end the practice of children going into police cells. Indeed, we intend to legislate to ban it, but the numbers are lower than they were so she should not suggest that it is a growing problem—[Interruption.] She did suggest that.

The hon. Lady asked about my acting on the warning. That is exactly what we did. NHS England carried out a review of clinical judgment on the capacity required to meet children’s needs. As a result, there was a proposal for an increase of 50 beds nationally, focusing on the areas of the country where there was a significant problem, and the Government provided £7 million of additional funding to ensure that those beds were opened. Forty-six beds have opened. There is a temporary problem in Woking, where beds that were available are no longer accepting new admissions. That is a CQC issue. One thing that we have been absolutely steadfast on is that if standards are not being met, we should not continue to admit children to those wards.

The hon. Lady mentioned psychosis services, but this Government, for the first time ever, introduced a waiting time standard for early intervention in psychosis, which was widely welcomed by everyone in the mental health world. From this April, we start the process of introducing a standard. To start with, 50% of all youngsters who suffer a first episode of psychosis will be seen within two weeks and start their treatment within two weeks. That is an incredibly important advance.

The hon. Lady lectures the Government on mental health services, but perhaps she will consider why the Labour Government left out mental health when they introduced access and waiting time standards for all other health services. That dictates where the money goes and means that mental health loses out. This Government are correcting that mistake.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I welcome the extra beds committed to south Devon. The Minister will know that one of the most frequent points raised with the Health Committee in our recent CAMHS inquiry was the complete absence of accurate prevalence data on children and adolescents’ mental health needs and the services required to meet them. He will know that the prevalence data collection that used to happen every five years was cancelled in 2004. The Committee warmly welcomed the commitment to restart that survey. Will he update the House on exactly when that survey will start, whether the funds have been identified, and whether the scope of the prevalence data collection has been identified?

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Unless we understand the prevalence of the problem, it is impossible to plan services effectively. I am delighted that we have secured the funding for an updated prevalence survey in 2015-16. It will be an expanded survey compared with the previous one. We want to cover as wide an age range as possible, to cover early years. That will give us the data, information and evidence we need, but I would then want us to do regular repeats to ensure that we maintain an understanding of prevalence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of children and young people being able to access treatment and support. If the truth be known, it has always been like this. It has always been the Cinderella of the Cinderella service, which is why we established a taskforce this summer, bringing in a whole load of experts and, importantly, consulting children and young people so that we can develop a modern health service for the mental health problems of children and young people. We hope to report early next year.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

19. As the Cabinet taskforce sets out on this important work, will the Minister reassure me that it will bear in mind the important finding of the Health Committee’s inquiry into CAMHS—Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services—that it is the tier 1 and tier 2 services that really make the difference in preventing the need to access the service when children are much more unwell?

[Norman Lamb]

I very much appreciated and supported the findings of the Health Select Committee report into children and young people’s mental health services. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we need to focus far more on preventing ill health and preventing a deterioration of it. If we can get into schools and work much better at maintaining people’s mental well-being, we can achieve much better results.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Lady raises an important point, which she and I have discussed before: the fact that very many people who end up taking up their own lives have had no contact at all with statutory services. I would be happy to discuss further with her what additional steps we can take to ensure that those people get the support they need.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I am delighted to see all the members of the Front-Bench team in their places this morning—or this afternoon, I should say. The principle of parity of esteem should also apply to consent to treatment. Does the Minister agree that the offer of talking therapies and other therapies must always be based on the principle of informed consent? Has he held any discussions with his colleagues in other Departments?

[Norman Lamb]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It seems to me to be inherent in the nature of therapy that people go into it willingly. The idea that we could frogmarch them into therapy against their will simply would not work. We could end up with a dangerous and costly tick-box exercise that achieved nothing, so there is no plan to introduce compulsion to access therapy.

Health

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Monday 9th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

May I start by paying tribute to my predecessor, Anthony Steen, for his tireless work in bringing in a modern slavery Bill?

Today, however, is for talking about health, which is a great passion for me in this place and outside it. The NHS touches people’s lives 1 million times every 36 hours, which is a staggering figure. I believe that the NHS is worth every penny of the nearly £110 billion that we spent on it in the last financial year. I am very proud that this Government have protected the health budget, but that does not of course mean that there are not enormous financial pressures. We are now in the fifth year of effectively near-flat funding, and the issues set out by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) are part of those pressures. We know that whichever Government were in power, there would have been serious challenges.

If the NHS is to be sustainable, we need to listen to the new chief executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens, who has called on all staff members to think like a patient and act like a taxpayer—we must do that to get every ounce of value out of our NHS—and to address issues of patient safety and of how we keep people out of hospital in the first place and get on with implementing the measures. The nature of the challenge has been set out in exhaustive detail; now we need to get on with the measures that have been put in place to help to prevent hospital admissions, to treat people at the right time in the right place, and to integrate health and social care. I want us to look carefully at the better care fund and the plans for getting best value out of it, and at the issues of patient safety that were mentioned earlier.

Given the absence of much legislation in the Gracious Speech, there is one regret that I want to point out: the absence of the Law Commission’s draft Bill on the regulation of health and social care. I hope that in summing up this debate, the Minister will give some reassurance that he can use secondary legislation to bring forward at least some of the measures in that draft Bill. It covers issues that touch 1 million people across 32 professions that are covered by nine regulatory bodies. Unless we clarify the language so that there is a common language in respect of patient safety across all those regulators, it will be difficult to implement some of the core messages from Francis and to act quickly in response to emerging threats to protect the public.

Every year for three years, the Health Committee has called on the Government to allow the General Medical Council to appeal panel decisions that clearly have not protected the public. Likewise, the Nursing and Midwifery Council would like powers to reopen cases in which it has been judged there is “no case to answer” if serious new evidence emerges. Alongside that, the General Pharmaceutical Council would like to implement transparency and to be able to take enforcement action. Those are all simple measures that I hope the Minister will mention in summing up. I also want the unacceptable level of delays to be addressed.

[Norman Lamb]

I want to give a quick confirmation that we will do what we can through secondary legislation to do what the hon. Lady requests.

[Dr Wollaston]

I am very pleased to hear that.

There will not be an absence of debates on health in this place. Two Bills will probably come here from the Lords in this Session: the Medical Innovation Bill and the Assisted Dying Bill. I will briefly put some of my concerns about the Medical Innovation Bill on the record while there is time for it to be amended. I have no doubt that it was introduced with the best of intentions to bring forward innovative treatments. However, I fear that it will have the reverse effect: it could undermine research and open the door to the exploitation of people when they are at their most vulnerable.

Currently, clinical negligence law provides redress for patients who have been harmed as a result of treatments that would not be supported by anybody of medical opinion. There is insufficient evidence that doctors are not introducing new treatments or are put off from doing so because of the fear of litigation. The NHS Litigation Authority has made it clear that doctors are protected from medical litigation in that respect. However, the briefing note for the Saatchi Bill talks about a doctor being able to use a novel treatment if he is “instinctively impressed” by it. In other words, doctors will be able to use an anecdotal base for treatments, rather than a clear evidence base. There are dangers in going down that route.

There have been some amendments to the Bill. Lord Saatchi has accepted that a doctor should have to consult colleagues and their medical team, but not that they should consider a body of opinion or consult ethics committees. I fear that we could be turning the clock back. We should rightly be proud of the advances that we are making in the field of medical research. We should rightly be proud of the push towards greater transparency, particularly in respect of open data and drug trials. However, I fear that if we allow people to access innovative treatments that have no evidence base, we will open the door to the purveyors of snake oil, rather than those who want to allow patients to enter controlled trials to establish a clear medical evidence base.

We should not underestimate the extent to which the purveyors of snake oil are out there. I put on the record my congratulations to Westminster city council and its trading standards department on fighting two successful prosecutions under the Cancer Act 1939 against two individuals, Errol Denton and Stephen Ferguson, for peddling so-called nutritional microscopy to people who were at their most vulnerable—cancer patients and patients with HIV—and telling them that it was an alternative to evidence-based treatments.

We must therefore be careful in how we move forward with such legislation. We should take more notice of the concerns of the Medical Research Council, the Wellcome Trust and the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, who feel not only that the Bill is unnecessary, but that it could turn the clock back on evidence-based medicine. I hope that the Government will look at the concerns that have been expressed about the Bill in its current form.

Finally, Lord Falconer’s Assisted Dying Bill would enable competent adults who were terminally ill to have assistance to end their lives, but it would require the involvement of a medical practitioner. Although the Bill comes under the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice, it would have profound implications for end-of-life care and medical practice. It would fundamentally change the relationship between doctors and patients. There is a risk that the right to die would slide into a duty to die. I have seen how often patients who are towards the end of their lives fear being a burden on their families, and they often go through periods of profound depression. I do not feel that this Bill is the way forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

That is precisely what I am seeking to do, but we have to address what I have often described as an institutional bias against mental health in the NHS. For example, when the previous Labour Government introduced a maximum waiting time of 18 weeks, inexplicably, they left out mental health again. What possible justification can there be for that? We are ending that and ensuring that when commissioners determine where funding goes they will have to take into account waiting time standards in mental health for the first time.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I am proud to be a patron of Cool Recovery, a mental health charity in my constituency that provides vital support and information for sufferers and their families. Will the Minister confirm that as we welcome Simon Stevens to his new role, he will not only discuss how parity of esteem is reflected in the overall funding share but make sure that some of that funding can go to the charities that provide that parity?

[Norman Lamb]

I will absolutely discuss parity of esteem with Simon Stevens when I meet him very soon and I will ensure that the case for third sector organisations is taken into account, as they play an incredibly important role. I was delighted, incidentally, to be down in the south-west at the signing of the crisis care concordat to ensure that people who are suffering a mental health crisis are treated in the same way as people who are suffering a physical health crisis.

Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Monday 16th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), who speaks so compellingly about his family’s experiences and sets out the case for why we must get social care right.

I welcome the Bill. It was a pleasure to serve on the Joint Committee on the Draft Care and Support Bill and I think the legislation has been greatly improved by its passage through that Committee and through the House of Lords. It establishes that we need a social care system that works around the needs of individuals, as well as the well-being principle and the vital prevention principle set out so compellingly by the hon. Member for Sefton Central. The Bill also consolidates a confusing patchwork of legislation that I remember coming up against in my time in the NHS. People were not sure what their eligibility was, and they could move from one part of the country to another and find that they no longer qualified in the way that they used to.

There are many things to welcome in the Bill. The hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) compellingly set out the effect of losing everything in the ghastly lottery of eligibility. Setting a cap on costs and raising the threshold from that paltry £23,250 to £100,000 is very welcome. So too is the focus on better information, advice and advocacy, and the assessment and better support for carers. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) made some important points about child carers and the transition from children’s services to adult services.

There is a huge amount to welcome in the Bill and I could talk for 10 minutes on why all these aspects are important. Unfortunately, we also need to focus on the challenges. The predominant challenge is demographic. Nationally 2.2% of the population are over 85, but in my constituency we got there 31 years ago. By 2020-21 2.9% of the population will be over 85, but for Torbay that figure will be 4.9%. That represents an enormous demographic challenge. We were discussing with the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) the reasons why age is so important in assessing need. Because of their demographics, places such as Torbay and wider south Devon face additional challenges with rurality, which means that they are under pressure like never before. Although I fully understand that we must take into account deprivation and health inequalities, unless we take sufficient account of age and need in assessing the formulae, the system will collapse.

I should point out that Torbay is not only nationally renowned but internationally renowned. As a member of the Health Committee, when we visited Copenhagen and Sweden, I ended up being shown slides of Torbay—how Torbay organises health and social care. If we look at the challenges facing Torbay, we see that it was those demographic and financial challenges that were the driver for looking at how health and social care could be better integrated and—I refer to the experience of the hon. Member for Sefton Central—how avoidable admissions could be reduced. Enormous progress has been made. Waiting times for occupational therapy have been reduced from two weeks to two days, for physiotherapy from eight weeks to 48 hours, and for urgent equipment to help keep people at home from four weeks to four hours. As a result, Torbay has the lowest hospital admission rate for elderly vulnerable people in the whole of the south-west.

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Does she share with me the excitement at the plan for Torbay as a pioneer to bring mental health back into primary care, properly to integrate that part of patient care? We have seen in other places that this can do an enormous amount to prevent a deterioration of health.

[Dr Wollaston]

Absolutely. I welcome the fact that Torbay will be part of one of the integrated care pilots, and particularly that focus on mental health, as my hon. Friend says.

Services in Torbay have been transformed through the use of care co-ordinators, so that only one phone call is necessary. There has been transformational work in sharing information and records and in rapid response to a crisis and putting prevention in place. The challenge that Torbay now faces is financial. Unfortunately, the elastic can stretch only so far before it snaps. Torbay’s funding is set to fall from £71.2 million this financial year to £63.6 million in 2014-15. Those cuts are in addition to the demographic challenges, the challenging situation in relation to children’s services, and the fact that we know that across the country 2015 is set to be a crunch year for NHS funding.

I welcome the £3.8 billion transfer for better care. We heard in the draft Bill Committee and in the Select Committee how such joint funding arrangements are the best driver to integration. A formula for integration cannot be dictated. What works for central London or central Manchester will be very different from what works in south Devon and in rural areas, but the fund will force people to work better together in a way that fits their area. That is very welcome.

[Dr Wollaston]

Indeed. It operates very well already in Torbay, but it cannot be dictated centrally. We need to get the hurdles out of the way, allow people to work together locally and facilitate that. We heard on the draft Bill Committee that joint funding streams were the best way to move that forward.

Unfortunately, in Torbay in the crunch year 2015 we will see the funding drop below 90% of projected expenditure. At that point, rather than driving further integration, it will cause systems to start to fall apart because people need to protect their own silos. That is a real danger. As the Bill proceeds to Committee, I hope we look very carefully at the effect of the funding gap and make sure that we are not setting a system up to fail. One of the problems with the Bill is that it sets up many new statutory responsibilities. Councils will have to fund care accounts, which will undoubtedly be complex, bureaucratic and subject to challenge. Councils will have responsibilities for carers’ assessments. There will be increasing numbers of eligible people as the thresholds and caps change. We will see safeguarding adults boards, more rights to information and advocacy, and for many, deferred payments, if they have not already been making those.

Once we create these additional statutory responsibilities, there will be less money to go around for the very things that are at heart of the well-being and prevention principle. That is what concerns me. Would it not be a tragedy if we set up carers’ assessments but there was no funding left for services to respond to needs? Voluntary organisations in my community can function incredibly efficiently on very little money. They do not need to be fully funded, but they need some funding. If that money dries up, I worry about how we will move forward with a genuine well-being and prevention principle.

I want the Bill to succeed. In the remaining minutes I shall touch on those aspects that I think are, sadly, still missing, which were recommended by the draft Bill Committee. One is how we calculate care costs according to their actual cost, not the cost to the council. For a person living in their own accommodation, it sometimes costs a great deal more to access support than it would cost a council to provide it. We need to look at that again.

There is a small but important area relating to powers of entry in exceptional circumstances for those who are subject to abuse in their own home. It would be wrong for us to ignore that possibility. Although the overwhelming majority of carers of course do a wonderful job in challenging circumstances, there are occasions, sadly, when people can be at risk from those who love them. Very often that is as a result of the intensely challenging circumstances that carers face. We need to reserve a power of entry in exceptional circumstances where there are very serious concerns about individuals who may be vulnerable and unable to communicate easily.

Another issue is free social care at the end of life. We know that 73% of people would like to be able to die at home. In my experience working as a GP in rural areas, where that broke down for most people was as a result of a lack of social care, and the challenge of caring for somebody right at the end of their life, when they may, for example, be doubly incontinent. Until people are in that situation, they may not understand how incredibly demanding it is to have to be with someone 24 hours a day, trying to stay awake and provide the intensive support they need. Allowing everybody to access free social care in those terrible final days would be a very important step forward.

Finally, the duty of candour we have introduced for foundation trusts is welcome, but I think that it should be extended to social care.

[Norman Lamb]

It will be.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the Minister for that clarification. Also, an offence of wilful neglect already exists with regard to adults who lack capacity, but I would like the Minister to consider extending it with regard to those who have capacity.

We heard earlier about reconfiguration. We need to streamline reconfiguration processes. It is not right that the NHS’s valuable resources should be spent on long, drawn-out and expensive legal challenges. We know that in many cases we need to reconfigure in people’s best interests. Let us take out the party politics and get it right. Let us ensure that people have the right care and that we face the financial challenges in the NHS in a mature fashion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Wollaston

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

4. What his policy is on making available all information about the results of clinical trials to patients, doctors and medicine approval bodies.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

The Government support transparency in publishing results of clinical trials, and they recognise that more can, and should, be done. In future, greater transparency and the disclosure of trial results will be achieved via the development of the European Union clinical trials register, which will make the summary results of trials conducted in the EU publicly available. Greater transparency can only serve to further public confidence in the safety of medicines, which is already robustly assured in the UK by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. By law, the outcomes of clinical trials undertaken by companies must be reported to that regulator, including negative results.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the Minister but some of these answers are simply too long. If they are drafted by officials, Ministers are responsible—[Interruption.] Order. I require no assistance at all from the Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry). She should stick to her own duties, which I am sure she will discharge with great effect.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the Minister for his answer and for recognising that missing data from clinical trials distorts the evidence and prevents patients and their doctors from making informed decisions about treatment. Will the Minister meet a delegation of leading academics and doctors who remain concerned that not enough is being done to see how we can ensure that all historic and future data are released into the public domain?

[Norman Lamb]

My hon. Friend raises absolutely legitimate concerns, which have been raised by others, including Ben Goldacre. I am happy for my noble Friend Lord Howe or me to meet her and experts to discuss this important issue further.