Science and Technology Committee

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Newton

Thursday 5th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

As both a former member of the Science and Technology Committee and a member of the Conservative Environment Network, I very much welcome this report. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that reducing emissions from people heating their homes is not only good for our climate change targets, but will reduce costs for people and enable us to end the scourge of fuel poverty?

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Lady makes an absolutely central point that is a real win-win. We can achieve the essential decarbonisation of our economy by confronting the problem of how we heat our buildings, particularly our homes, but we can also achieve affordable housing. We often talk about affordable housing and the vital need to increase access to it, but housing is not affordable unless energy is cheap. We have the potential to minimise and, indeed, to eradicate the cost of energy in our homes if only we were to follow the objectives set out in this report.

Drugs Policy

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Newton

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton]

We have consulted widely with a range of experts and academics, and we are well served by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, but we have also consulted communities, users and people with frontline experience of addressing these issues. I totally agree that we have to consider the complexity of the challenges facing individuals who are drawn into substance misuse, and we must ensure that we have tailor-made recovery solutions, which will often include support on underlying vulnerabilities or mental health issues. The strategy, as I will outline in some detail, seeks to take a multifaceted, joined-up approach so that people right at the heart of it can make a sustained recovery, which is what we all want to see.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

The Minister says there are signs that the policy is working, but does she ever pause for thought when she sees the significant increase in the number of people dying from drug misuse in the past three years? That picture is not mirrored in other European countries that take a more enlightened approach.

[Sarah Newton]

There is no complacency in my approach, or in the Government’s approach. In setting out the context of the new strategy, it is worth reflecting on some of our past successes—we have a good evidence base upon which to build for the future. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I am concerned by that increase in the number of deaths, often of people with long-term substance misuse problems. If he stays for the debate, I hope he will hear about our approach to prevent those deaths, which is a key part of our new strategy. I will welcome further interventions at that point. A speech from the right hon. Gentleman, who served so well as a Health Minister in the coalition and who played such an important role in some of the Department’s successes, would be carefully listened to and taken into consideration in our work in the years ahead.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton]

I accept that some Members and some people in our country think that we should decriminalise drugs. I do not agree, because we are evidence-based policy makers and all the evidence shows the awful harms caused by the drugs that we ban and restrict. Our primary job is to keep people safe, and the way to do that is to prevent them from taking drugs in the first place.

[Norman Lamb]

I note the point about this being “evidence-based”, but the evidence clearly shows that the most dangerous drug in terms of harm is alcohol. So will the Minister explain the different approaches the Government take to alcohol, the most dangerous drug, and to cannabis?

[Sarah Newton]

I would not agree that alcohol is the most dangerous drug, as we can see if we look at the substances we are restricting. There are people who take alcohol to such a harmful degree that it is devastating for them, and for their family members and the wider community. I fully accept, as the Government do in the modern crime prevention strategy, that the misuse of alcohol has dramatically harmful effects and contributes to crime, but alcohol taken in moderation is not a harmful drug. The Department of Health constantly keeps this under review and is doing research all the time to understand the health impact of alcohol, and it revisits what it considers to be safe drinking guidance. Public Health England has only recently updated the guidance, which suggests that people should be consuming less alcohol.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton]

We have a broad range of strategies, and I will come on to talk about harm reduction, because, clearly, it has a role to play. The ultimate goal is to enable people to have a drug-free life in which they have a job and are playing a full part in society, but there is a role for harm reduction.

[Norman Lamb]

rose—

[Sarah Newton]

I am sorry, but I have very little time. If I can make some progress, I will give way.

Many Members talked about how concerned they were that the police and the criminal justice system were criminalising a whole generation of young people. I can absolutely assure Members that, having spent a lot of time with police officers, that is simply not the case. The police are very, very sensitive to the need not to do that. We have a wide range of options available to police officers and the courts, so that young people in the criminal justice system can be referred straight to health solutions, diversion services and treatment. It is only as a last resort, often with persistent offending, that the criminal justice solution is sought.

The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) talked about the need for class A drugs, such as heroin, to be used in treatment and recovery programmes. I can assure him that that is absolutely what happens. That was the recommendation that ACMD made and the drugs are available. However, that is quite different from just making a space available for people to take drugs. Having heard the evidence of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), it is really important that if people are to be taking heroin it must be part of a treatment programme with recovery as the end point. I have been to the facilities and seen for myself how people are given clean needles and support and advice, but it is medically led by a doctor. That was a point that the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) made, and it was reflected in the advice that we took from the ACMD.

My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) talked powerfully about the issue being a matter of social justice, and she is absolutely right. The strategy addresses the problems that she articulated so well of children living in homes with parents who have substance abuse problems, whether we are talking about alcohol or drugs. It is important that we take a joined-up approach to make sure that those families are really supported. She also mentioned the important issue of cheap alcohol and white cider. I very much supported the action that the Treasury is taking in consulting on increasing taxation; that consultation is under way, and I am sure that we will hear the results in due course.

My hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) spoke powerfully, drawing on her experience of the serious organised criminals who bring the most harmful drugs into our country. She is absolutely right to highlight the human trafficking and appalling abuse of children that happens in bringing the drugs into our country. The same gangs exploit vulnerable people in our country in order to traffic these drugs around the country. She is right to draw on her experience, and on the view shared by many in the criminal justice system that we need to work globally, through the United Nations and our partners, and share data to prevent these drugs from arriving on our shores.

The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith) spoke about the difficulties of families. I really hope that Martha’s mum, who is here, sees how seriously we take the loss of any child. As a mother of three children, I just cannot imagine the horror of getting that phone call to say that I had lost one of my children. I want to reassure her; I hope that she sees, from the nature of this debate, how seriously the Government and everyone in the House take the issue. We want to work against the stigma that families face, so that they can speak out and get the help that they need. I hope that she is somewhat reassured by the strategy’s emphasis on the good advice and information that should be readily available to young people, so that they understand the risks of all drugs, including alcohol, tobacco, and other substances that they might be tempted to take. A lot of progress has been made in the four years since Martha’s tragic death.

The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) made a point that he also raised at Home Office questions last week. Winging its way to him is a detailed written response to that question. I recognise the picture that he describes in his community. It is something that I faced in Truro last year. What I saw there is that, as he has discovered, not everybody—not all police officers or people in local authorities—has all the information about the powers that they have to work as a team to tackle these issues. In my letter to him, I describe what I think he can do, and the advocacy and agency that he can bring to bear in getting all the partners together in Wrexham to work on the issue.

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman on the funding for the testing that police officers need to do of substances that they find on people in order to get convictions. That testing regime is well supported by and funded by the Home Office, but as I say, I will write to him in a lot more detail.

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) spoke passionately about the work of Elizabeth Brice and her campaign for the medicinal use of cannabis. I want to assure him and all Members in the House that there is access to medicinal cannabis. It can be used for a wide range of ailments and can be very beneficial. Sativex, for example, is licensed for use. It has been raised with me before that our regime for enabling pharmaceutical companies or medical researchers to use licensed drugs is letting people down, so I have asked the Department of Health and the ACMD to look at this. We have not seen any evidence that the current regime is a barrier to people using banned drugs in medical research, but if the hon. Gentleman has that evidence and wants to send it to me, of course we will review that.

The term “war on drugs” was used repeatedly in the debate, most passionately by the right hon. Member for North Norfolk, who spoke with customary eloquence, but also by the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan). I just want to say that I have never used that term, and it appears nowhere in the strategy. It is simply not the Government’s policy to have a “war on drugs,” so I hope that we can sort that out once and for all. We have a far-reaching, cross-Government policy focused on the health harms of drugs, the underlying social reasons why people take drugs, and trying to prevent them, right through to the criminal justice system. We are taking a balanced, full-Government, integrated approach. I can assure hon. Members that we always look at evidence from around the world, so the evidence from Portugal has been considered.

The hon. Member for Bassetlaw quite rightly said that if we are absolutely serious about reducing the number of deaths from heroin, especially among those who have been taking it for some time—and we certainly are; no Minister wants the number of deaths to increase on their watch—we must have an evidence-based approach. I honestly think that the strategy will tackle that. We do recognise that naloxone can play a vital role in saving lives, as he said, and that there is a good evidence base for that. The strategy that was published commits us to the wider use of that in saving lives.

The hon. Member for Bassetlaw also described the excellent work that was done in Bassetlaw up until 2013. That is just the sort of local response that we want to see, with all the agencies working together. The drug champion will of course have a vital role, travelling across the country, finding best practice and sharing it with those communities that perhaps do not have as good an understanding of how to tackle the issue. The strategy board, which will be chaired by the Home Secretary, will include representation from NHS England, Public Health England and the police—a whole range of expertise. They will work together to develop measurable outcome frameworks, which of course we will share over time as they are developed, and we can hold each other to account for their delivery.

The hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) claimed that the Government are ignoring the recommendations of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs with regard to deaths from heroin. That is simply not the case. We have taken all of its recommendations into consideration in forming the strategy. We have a good, constructive, ongoing relationship —I meet the chairman regularly. I am sure that the work of the board, led by the Home Secretary, will be informed by the ACMD’s really excellent work.

The Home Office and Public Health England jointly set up some heroin and crack cocaine action areas. The piloting we did in Middlesbrough gave some good ideas about how to move in the right direction, and that is referenced in the strategy. Despite the claims made by some colleagues on the Opposition Benches, there has been a lot of innovation in recent years, and we very much want to build on that. We need only look at the excellent clinical advice that has been developed by Public Health England to help clinicians have a much more nuanced and effective approach to understanding the different types of people who suffer from drug misuse and the different types of drugs they use, and therefore to have a more tailored approach to helping them on the road to recovery.

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to the Minister, who has responded to all the challenges in a tolerant and civilised way. The hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) proposed that we have a royal commission in order to take the heat and the politics out of this matter and look dispassionately at all the arguments. Will the Minister at least consider that?

[Sarah Newton]

I just do not agree that politics is driving the issue. Our approach is totally evidence-based. If we were worried and felt unable to talk about the problem, as some have characterised us this afternoon, the Government would not have given a whole afternoon of debate to it. I accept the sincerely held views of hon. Members who do not agree with the Government, but that does not mean that our policy is not based on evidence. We are happy to debate the issue; there will be other opportunities and I will welcome those.

The pivotal role of Parliament is to scrutinise the work of the Executive and take on some of the difficult issues in our society. I am proud of our work together in the last Parliament on destigmatising mental health issues. A lot of people in this place were prepared to talk about those issues from personal experience and also with a huge amount of evidence. It is fair to say that there has been a huge culture change in our country. By talking about drug addiction and substance abuse problems, as we have today, we will contribute to a destigmatisation. As a result, more people will come forward. Families will be saved appalling loss and communities will be saved the blight of the criminal activity that goes along with this issue.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Newton

Monday 2nd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I would be happy to provide as much information as possible—I have no need to keep anything secret and I would like to assist as much as I can. Again, I caution that children and young people turning up in police cells has been happening, quietly and unnoticed, for a very long time, but the truth is that the numbers are coming down. That is good, but I want it to stop altogether.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

The Minister has been supportive of my work to secure specialist adolescent mental health services in Cornwall. When he next comes to Cornwall, will he meet me and local commissioners to see how we can benefit from new money and plans that have been communicated today?

[Norman Lamb]

If the diary allows I am certainly up for that, and I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for the work she has done in her county in trying to improve children’s mental health services. We must do that across the country, and there are many examples of real and significant improvements.

National Health Service

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Newton

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

The NHS across the UK, including urgent and emergency care services, is facing enormous challenges. By the end of this Parliament, there will be nearly 1 million more over-65s than there were at its start, which means substantially more patients with more complex health needs, but such pressures are not unique to England. All hon. Members need to think very carefully about how we pursue the debate on the challenges and pressures that the NHS is facing. Patients and the NHS do not need or want cynicism and party point scoring. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) were absolutely correct to make that point.

[Sarah Newton]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the pioneer programme in Cornwall is really leading the way, with the provisional results showing a 41% reduction in A and E and in-patient visits?

[Norman Lamb]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The Cornwall pioneer programme is doing the most amazing work making innovative change, involving Age UK alongside local doctors, and it is delivering real results.

Why does the Labour party make constant claims that the NHS in England is in crisis, when the position is so much worse in Wales, where Labour is in power?

Carers

Debate between Norman Lamb and Sarah Newton

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who has made a huge contribution not only today but throughout his parliamentary career—as a Minister and now from the Back Benches—in raising these issues.

I had the great privilege of being parliamentary ambassador for carers week for the Conservative party, along with my coalition partner, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. Rather than trying to cover what was an encyclopaedic summary of the issues affecting carers, the excellent research communicated during the week or, indeed, many of the points made by colleagues on the Opposition Benches, I would instead like to back up everything that he said in describing so well the challenges and opportunities and summarising the Government’s position. I will then make some reflections and observations on my time as an ambassador.

I would like to congratulate the organisations that came together to form carers week, because they achieved something quite remarkable. More than 26,000 organisations across the UK came together and put on more than 100,000 events. Why is that important? From the events I attended, I realised it was vital to raise awareness of the services and financial help available for carers. Like many other Members, I am sure, I often find in my casework and when visiting organisations in my constituency that those who most need help are often the least likely to access it, and we have to work hard to ensure that the legislation, the benefits and the rights that we provide for in the House get into the hands of the people who really need it.

When attending the events in my constituency, I was struck by a fundamental problem touched on by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams): many carers do not identify themselves as such. I spent some time in the lobby of the Royal Cornwall hospital trust alongside volunteers and care support workers from the Cornwall Rural Community Council. They would approach people who were clearly carers—elderly people pushing people in wheelchairs, coming into hospital, attending appointments or leaving hospital—and ask them, “Are you a carer?” They would ask them very nicely and in a friendly manner, with a view to engaging with them to ensure they were getting the help to which they were entitled, but the people would hurry on saying, “No, I’m not a carer.”

If, however, we asked whether they looked after someone—a husband, wife, child or loved one—they replied yes. If we asked them, “Do you regularly provide support perhaps through cooking meals or going shopping?”, they replied yes. We need to think about that a bit more in our desire to find out who carers are and ensure they get the support they need, whether from the NHS, councils, employers or the voluntary sector and wider community. We need to think about how we frame the conversation to enable people to identify themselves as carers, because most of the people I spoke to said, “Well, I’m just doing what any family member would do. This is what families do.” If somebody is ill or has a disability or care need, families gather round. I took that from my meetings last week, and it is particularly important in literature. Central Government produce a lot of literature, and a lot of benefits leaflets go out through the Department for Work and Pensions and throughout the health service, so we should think about the terms we use and how we can engage with people in that literature.

Another thing I reflected on after speaking with carers last week—this came out in the reports—was the evidence on the number of people who gave up work to care. This can have a detrimental impact on the carer: they miss the social contact provided at work and can feel quite isolated and often trapped at home, especially in remote rural areas, such as those in my constituency, where it is difficult to use public transport and connect to wider society. It also has a detrimental impact on household incomes and pension provision. The main question that Carers UK is asking the whole nation is the right one: are we prepared to care? It is a question for the whole of society. Are employers prepared to provide those flexible working opportunities to enable people both to attend to their caring responsibilities and to work?

We have to be realistic, however, because many people are worried about their job at the moment, and so, for fear of losing their job, are unlikely to talk to their employer about the need to work flexible hours. The Government need to engage with employers—there are exemplars, such as BT, with a long track record of recruiting and retaining older workers and enabling flexible working—about the research and the issues and to get them thinking about making it easier for their staff to request flexible working. The huge triumph in employment in the past century was to enable women to juggle caring responsibilities for children and work. In this century, as we respond to significant demographic changes, we need a massive shift to enable workers of all ages to combine other caring responsibilities. For older people and people with disabilities, that is a very important lesson from carers week.

Carers told me that even if they wanted to carry on working—if they had the income and were prepared to pay for care, or have a mixture so that they would do part of the caring but pay for people to come into the home to support them, and their loved ones agreed to that—they were anxious about the quality of the care they would be inviting into their homes. All of us were horrified by recent revelations about some of the carers going into people’s homes, whether they were paid for by individuals or local authorities as part of their domiciliary care service. Until we crack the nut of ensuring that high-quality, well-trained and well-paid carers are going into people’s homes, people will have a great fear and reluctance to try and combine caring responsibilities with employment.

We find a sad position in too many local authorities. We all understand that councils’ budgets are under a lot of pressure. I was a councillor and I know that it is difficult to balance all the needs of one’s community with conflicting demands on what the council should be spending its money on. No two people agree on what a council’s priority should be. For me, it is straightforward: a council’s responsibility, like central Government’s responsibility, is to prioritise the care of the most vulnerable people in society. However, in contracting for domiciliary care, local authorities are cutting their payments so low that it is difficult for private care providers to provide a good quality of care while remaining economically sustainable. That reduces the options available for the vast majority of people who self-fund care.

[Norman Lamb]

I agree very much with the points my hon. Friend is making. Instead of commissioning on the basis of a quarter of an hour and a race to the bottom with the lowest bidder winning the contract, does she agree that commissioning that provides incentives to improve the well-being of the individual being cared for—maintaining their mobility and improving their capacity to remain independent—is the way in which local authorities should be contracting providers of care at home?

[Sarah Newton]

I absolutely agree that local authorities should be remorselessly focused on the best possible outcomes for the people they have a duty to provide care for. They should also understand that while the vast majority of people are not eligible for local authority care, local authorities have a responsibility as market shapers in their localities to ensure that private, third and voluntary sector organisations are able to provide the care services that most people pay for themselves. By constantly engaging in a race to the bottom, they are undermining the ability of those organisations to provide services to the community. Most private or third sector domiciliary care providers need a certain amount of contracts or business from the local authority.

[Sarah Newton]

I back what my hon. Friend says. The Joint Committee’s report was excellent and showed Parliament at its best. People with tremendous experience from the House of Lords and this place worked together to scrutinise and improve that excellent Bill. The Government should be commended for introducing it at a time of economic restraint, especially as it has financial consequences: spending more money on supporting carers is a bold thing to do at the moment and it underlines the great value we put on carers. I back my hon. Friend in his call for an amendment, because if local authorities are tempted to avoid doing what we would all regard as the right thing—to look after the most vulnerable people in our society—we need to tighten up the law to remove that temptation from them.

I would like to share another issue that was raised in carers week. The strong message from carers was that they do not always feel involved in the decisions made by professionals about the people they are caring for. The Government have, rightly, enshrined in their health and social care reforms the principle that “No decision should be taken about me without me.” I would like to extend that so that “No decision is taken about the person I am caring for without me.” I have heard far too many cases, in my own case work and during carers week—particularly from parents caring for children with disabilities—where substantial decisions, on whether their children should be cared for away from their home many hundreds of miles away, were considered without proper discussion with the parents. That is absolutely wrong. There is a prevalent attitude among some professionals that they know best: “Trust me, we know what is best for your child. Trust me, we know what is best for your wife or your husband.” While I would like to be able to trust all professionals—we think that by and large they do have the best interests of people at heart—there should be openness and transparency. Carers should be involved in decisions, so that there is a joint agreement and an understanding about what is in the best interests of the person being looked after.

On a more positive note, I would like to share some of the good practice I saw during carers week. I saw great examples of innovation involving the voluntary sector, in particular. We have talked about statutory provision and what employers can do, but broader civil society and the voluntary sector have an enormous role to play too. I would like to share two examples from Cornwall, one of which is from my own constituency.

A group of people in Falmouth in my constituency responded to the Prime Minister’s dementia challenge by wanting to ensure that everybody in the community supported people with dementia. More than 200 organisations in Falmouth got together to make it a dementia-friendly community. I was proud, in my hometown, to be at the launch a couple of weeks ago, and I was proud that it was the first town in Cornwall, and probably one of the first in the country, to be a dementia-friendly community.

What does it mean to be a dementia-friendly community? It means that the shopkeepers in the high street have gone through awareness training. It means that we have dementia cafes and that the people in the youth centre are aware of people with dementia. Overall, it means that people who suffer from dementia, or are caring for someone who suffers from dementia, can go into Falmouth with confidence, knowing that they will receive a warm welcome in the shops, libraries, public spaces and the youth centre. The people there will understand more about dementia and some of the behaviour that comes with it. Some people might find that behaviour a little bit challenging and scary, which often makes the people who care for someone with dementia want to stay at home. They can be fearful of the response they will receive in a public space and end up becoming isolated. I can honestly say that people with dementia will receive a very warm welcome in Falmouth, thanks to the huge amount of work done by a small group of volunteers ably led by the Bridges, who are Rotarians in Falmouth.

The whole community has got behind this exciting project—indeed, so much so that another group of people in Falmouth, led by a former nurse, Lisa Dann, has been working with Dementia UK over the last year to raise enough money for two admiral nurses. For those who do not know, admiral nurses, who are similar to Macmillan nurses, are specialist nurses who work alongside those with dementia and their carers, providing a lifeline for people coping with what can be a very difficult condition. Lisa was motivated to set up the charity and raise funds because of the poor support that her mum and her family received when her dad was suffering, before sadly dying from dementia.

Lisa has created a fantastic legacy in recognition of her father by raising enough funds—£60,000 in one year, which is a great credit to her, her team and the community—for the whole of Cornwall to have two admiral nurses. Her group is working innovatively in a partnership with a large social enterprise in Cornwall—Cornwall Care, which is the largest independent care provider in the county—to make the scheme sustainable. The group will be raising more money for more admiral nurses, which will provide a huge amount of support for carers, as well as people suffering from dementia. That is a good example of how the voluntary sector and volunteers can create a caring environment for carers.

[Norman Lamb]

I came across another example in my hon. Friend’s county called Changing Lives, where GPs work together—

[Sarah Newton]

I was just about to come to that.

[Norman Lamb]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend about the role of civil society. That will be a vital collaboration if we are to meet the challenge, given the rise in the number of people who need care.

[Sarah Newton]

rose—