Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Norman Lamb and Helen Whately

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Tuesday 18th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Helen Whately]

The hon. Gentleman has made a good point about the support for the Bill. Some Opposition Members have suggested that there is not much support for it, but it is, in fact, widely supported. Yes, there are concerns, with which I shall deal shortly, but, as the hon. Gentleman has said, there is widespread support for improvements in the current system. Those improvements include simplification—less bureaucracy and fewer administrative burdens—and the critically important representation of individuals through the independent mental capacity advocates, which will give them a voice. The frequency of assessments will become more appropriate; as my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan) said earlier, timings can be inappropriate and excessively burdensome. There is a better choice of language: the Bill removes the term “unsound mind”, which is very stigmatising and completely unnecessary. I am also pleased that the Government have listened to the concerns expressed by some of my constituents about, for instance, potential conflicts of interests for care home owners when a financial interest may be involved.

However, I have three outstanding concerns. First, there is the question of how the amended Act will work for people with severe mental illnesses. The Bill clearly focuses on those who lack capacity because of, for instance, dementia, learning difficulties, autism or brain injuries, but, if I understand it correctly, it could be applied to people with severe mental illnesses. Figures suggest that the current Act is applied to a significant number of people in such circumstances. We know that such illnesses—bipolar disorders, for example—are likely to fluctuate, and that as a result people’s capacity may also fluctuate. That could cause them to be detained and deprived of their liberty when, in fact, they have regained capacity. The Minister in the Lords, Lord O’ Shaughnessy, gave a commitment that that would be addressed in the code of practice, but may I press this Minister to ensure that there are sufficient safeguards in the Bill?

[Norman Lamb]

Does the hon. Lady agree that, given the cohort that could be covered by both pieces of legislation, it is particularly important that the approach be consistent?

[Helen Whately]

I completely agree, and that relates to my second concern, which others have mentioned and which relates to the interaction between the Bill and the 2005 Act. In his review, Sir Simon Wessely suggested that there should be a new dividing line between the two. I hope the Minister will explain how that will work.

My third concern is whether the Bill will address a situation that I suspect many of us have encountered, when elderly people are locked into their homes. When I have been knocking on doors, I have sometimes been told, “Do not knock on that door, because the lady there has been locked in by her family, and she becomes very distressed and upset if someone rings the doorbell because she cannot answer the door and she does not understand why.” This is clearly a completely inhumane way to treat people, but it is happening. People are being detained at home without appropriate safeguards for their safety as much as anything, so I ask the Minister to say whether the Bill can address this problem, or are there any other steps we might take to deal with the issue of people being inappropriately locked in at home and deprived of their liberty?

I appreciate the spirit in which this Bill has been presented to the House, and the willingness of the Government to listen, as they have already shown as the Bill has been going through the Lords. I have listened to Opposition Members, but think there is widespread support for the Bill among interest groups and experts. I look forward to the Government continuing to listen and improve the Bill so that we have a better system sooner rather than later.

Health, Social Care and Security

Debate between Norman Lamb and Helen Whately

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

All of us must listen and learn, and one lesson I take from the recent election is that we on the Government Benches must explain our values to a new generation and explain why our approach gives people opportunities and a chance to make the most of their lives, and funds the public services we care about. We must get on with the job we have been asked to do, see through a good Brexit, heal divisions in our society, sort out housing, set out how we will fund public services sustainably, and tackle the sense people have of being overlooked too often by those in authority.

In this Queen’s Speech, the patient safety Bill, creating an independent body to investigate patient safety, should help achieve exactly that for the NHS. It should give people a safe space to speak up, driving a stronger culture of listening and learning—applying lessons from the airline industry—so that patients are less likely to suffer the consequences of mistakes.

The commitments on mental health, along with the £1.4 billion of extra funding for children and young people’s mental health announced in the last Budget, address one of the great concerns across society, particularly among young people. I particularly welcome the introduction of mental health first aid training for teachers, so that more children get mental health help at school.

Providing social care as more people—thankfully—live longer is one of the great challenges we face as a country, and one that, I am afraid, Labour shirked in this election. We committed an extra £2 billion in our last Budget, but we know that is not enough for the longer term, and it is time to have the conversation about the contract between generations—about whether younger people, struggling right now to afford a home, to buy or even to rent, who are likely to work for more years than their parents, should really be the ones to pay for older people’s care.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I was surprised to hear the hon. Lady mention the references to social care in the general election campaign. Does she support what the Conservatives put forward, and the abandonment of the cap on care costs that they had previously committed to implementing?

[Helen Whately]

I hope that we will consult on a cap, but I welcome the fact that we took the issue head on and came up with a plan that would fund and improve social care to address exactly the point that I am referring to. We need to make sure that it is not the younger generation—people of working age—who fund much of the bill for social care.

As with social care, we face growing costs for the NHS, and the Government have put more money where it is needed—an extra £8 billion more annually by 2022 compared with this year. We can do that because we have a strong economy—3 million more jobs since 2010; rising wages; and unemployment at its lowest for over 40 years. That economic growth changes lives for the better, and it pays for public services.

While I differ from the official position of the Democratic Unionist party on issues of equality and women’s rights, I thank DUP colleagues for their support and responsible approach in helping us to make sure that we have a Government. That is in contrast to the Opposition, who made it clear in their manifesto that they would put our economy and British livelihoods at risk. People voted for change in the election, but they did not vote for a socialist revolution. Britain deserves better. We should be an open, optimistic and united country: a great place to do business, with a strong economy that pays for world-class public services, where everyone has the chance of a decent job and a better life and people contribute their fair share because we all have a stake. I urge Members from all parts of the House to come together in the national interest and back the Prime Minister to get on with the job.

NHS and Social Care Commission

Debate between Norman Lamb and Helen Whately

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention; he absolutely makes the case. Incidentally, I think that it is massively in the Government’s interests to respond positively, because any solution has to carry public support and support across the political spectrum.

Consider these points. Does it still make sense to maintain the divide that was originally put in place in 1948 between the NHS and the social care system? Is that serving patients effectively, particularly given that the big challenge of this century will be people living with long-term, chronic conditions, often multiple conditions, and often a mix of mental and physical health conditions? For those people, a divide between different organisations with different pools of money and different commissioning arrangements does not seem to make much sense. I think that that needs to be looked at.

Too often, the system gives the impression of being rather dysfunctional. For example, last October there were 160,000 bed days resulting from people whose discharges were delayed. These are predominantly older people, often with dementia, who remain stuck in hospital long after they are ready to go home or somewhere closer to home. This is not good care. We are letting people down by keeping them in hospital for longer than they need to be, which also makes it harder for them to become independent again. The figure went down a little in November, but it is still the second highest since the data on delayed discharges started to be recorded.

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions the relationship between the NHS and social care and the problem with their being separate. Does he acknowledge that the “Five Year Forward View” contains several approaches to bringing them together, and that parts of the country are already working on further integrating them? Is it not important to press on with those approaches so that we can see how they work and move as quickly as possible on this?

[Norman Lamb]

I totally agree with the hon. Lady. I have always been a strong supporter of the forward view. Simon Stevens is a good leader of the NHS. He has a vision, and he recognises that the solutions to this challenge often lie beyond the NHS. Some of the models that are being trialled across the country are very interesting. I do not want what I am saying to be seen in any way as undermining the very good work that is under way in the so-called vanguards around the country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

My right hon. Friend comes to the central point. As someone once said, the NHS has the status of a national religion. In this partisan atmosphere in which we all work, there is a danger that anyone who proposes a change to the NHS will get condemned from on high, because of the political points that can be scored in so doing. If we are to think about what we need from a modern health and care system that focuses on prevention, and to make changes in a rational way, we must give Government the space to think afresh about how we can sustain the system and guarantee care for those who need it. We have a choice now: we continue to drift until, ultimately, the system crashes, or we grasp the nettle and come up with a long-term solution.

All parties should commit to the proposal. If we want a good example, we should look at the commission of Adair Turner, which was established by the Labour Government to look at the long-term sustainability of pensions in this country. He managed to secure cross-party buy-in. He came up with proposals that led to change and reform. It was a process that gave people the space to look at a very difficult challenge and to come up with solutions. That is one model we could follow. It should be strictly time-limited. Somebody made the point that we are talking about not a royal commission, which goes into the long grass for three or four years, but a time-limited commission of up to one year with the aim of coming up with solutions that are then implemented. It should engage with the public, with patient groups and, critically, with staff, who, as the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) said, often feel that they are under intense pressure and that they are not listened to by Governments of all political persuasions. They, together with unions and civic society, should be centrally engaged with this commission. At the end of the process, we should seek to come up with recommendations that can then be implemented and can give everyone in this country the assurance that there is a long-term settlement for the NHS and for care.

Finally, let me raise one or two things that the commission needs to consider. It needs to look at the divide between the NHS and social care and at the adequacy of funding. How much as a society are we prepared to pay to ensure that we have a good, well-functioning health and care system? At the moment, funding for our health and care system comes through three different channels: the NHS, local authorities and the benefit system. Does that make sense? Should we look again at that system?

We also need to look at how we, as a country, are spending money on our older people. Are we spending it effectively enough? Are we targeting it at those older people who most need Government help? We need to look at intergenerational fairness and at where the money comes from—a point very well made in a recent book by the respected former Cabinet Minister, David Willetts. We also need to consider how we can give power to people to help them to self-care. David Wanless, when he reported for the Labour Government, made the point that his projections about how much extra money the system would need was based on people being engaged in their health—I am talking about self-caring more effectively. That has not happened in the way that he proposed.

We also need to consider the case for a dedicated health and care tax, which can be varied locally. Even protecting NHS spending results in disproportionate cuts in other areas of Government spending, distorting sensible, rational decisions. As this is an area on which spending inexorably rises, there is a case for carving out such a tax.

[Helen Whately]

rose—

[Norman Lamb]

I am sorry, but I want to conclude my remarks now to give other Members a chance to speak.

This proposal has had very significant support. NHS Survival, which now encompasses 8,000 members—junior doctors, patient groups and so on—has strongly argued for such a tax. Forty chief executives of care organisations wrote to the Prime Minister to support the case. The chief executive of the King’s Fund, Chris Ham, has written a very helpful blog, making the case. Royal colleges of surgeons, pathologists and anaesthetists have all supported the call. I urge the Government to respond positively. They should stop and think for a moment before rejecting our proposal, because it might be an enormous help to the Government in resolving an intractable problem. This is the time for a 21st-century Beveridge report to come up with a long-term settlement for the NHS and for social care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Whately]

I agree with the right hon. Lady that it is difficult in our election cycle to think further ahead, but it is not impossible. During the last Parliament, the NHS came up with the “Five Year Forward View”, which at the time was supported by all major political parties. With that experience behind us, it is possible to go ahead and come up with further long-term views. As I said, a debate, rather than aiming for a consensus, would be helpful. That is exactly the sort of thing that think-tanks, researchers and all sorts of organisations can, are and should look into.

I want to highlight the fact that this issue is political. The right hon. Member for North Norfolk mentioned an organisation called NHS Survival. I saw on its website that lots of clinicians are involved with it. It is fabulous that clinicians are involved in this discussion about the future of the NHS. That said, the founder of the organisation was also, according to its website, the person who initiated a petition calling on the Secretary of State for Health to resign. The right hon. Gentleman called on NHS Survival as an example of a body lobbying for a commission, but it is clearly very political. There is no way of taking the politics out of this.

[Norman Lamb]

I totally share the hon. Lady’s view that the politics should not be taken out of health. As others have said, we spend such a substantial amount of public money on the NHS and social care that it is absolutely right it should be subject to political debate. However, as others have said, in particular the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), we do not ultimately, in the partisan environment we work in, confront the really difficult issues. They keep being put off. This is the whole problem. However much in theory she describes a perfect democratic situation in which these issues are debated and resolved, they are not resolved. We remain drifting into crisis because we are not confronting it.

[Helen Whately]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the need to look at and confront the long-term future funding settlement. I just do not think a commission is necessarily the right way to do it. The fact that we are having a conversation about it now, here in this House, is in its own right a good thing.