Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [Lords]

Debate between Norman Lamb and George Freeman

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

It has been good to join the hon. Members for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) and for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), and many others, in tabling our amendments. I very much welcome the Minister’s response.

People often get into a vicious circle, with mental ill health leading them into debt because they neglect vital things and the pressure of those debts intensifying their mental ill health. Kenny Johnston, an inspiring man who set up the charity Clasp and who walked out of darkness to build solidarity for people experiencing mental ill health and suicidal ideation, went through eight years of battle with a bank on mortgage arrears that were started by mental ill health, resulting in two suicide attempts—there was constant pressure on him over that eight-year period. This measure will make a difference. It will help, and it is good the Government have been prepared to listen.

It is important to understand that this is not a panacea. I encourage the Minister also to recognise that there are very many people beyond the scope of clauses 19 and 20, such as people in in-patient care and people supported in the community, who are still experiencing mental ill health and who may end up at risk of suicide because of debt. It is important to get the message out and to establish proper processes in companies, particularly financial services companies, to treat people with mental ill health in an appropriate way in order to protect vulnerable citizens.

Legislation is already in place. The Equality Act 2010 contains a duty to consider reasonable adjustments for people who suffer from a disability, which can include mental ill health, and it is important that we spread best practice much further. I welcome the measure, but it is a start and we need to do much more to protect people’s lives.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Given the shortness of time, I will be brief. I thank the Minister and congratulate him on providing the House with what we were looking for this afternoon. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), the Breathing Space campaign and the 80-odd colleagues on both sides of the House who have supported the proposal.

I thank the Minister and the Government for signalling what many people in the House and across the country hugely welcome: an appetite for cross-party working in pursuit of looking after the most vulnerable in society, in the spirit of the Prime Minister’s mission when she arrived in No. 10 two years ago. This will send a signal that we are serious.

Secondly, I echo the comments made by my neighbour, the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), about the importance of understanding the vicious cycle of mental health and debt, and the way in which the two are so often implicated here. Recent figures from ComRes have shown that 56% of people in work say that payday struggles are their biggest anxiety. Often that anxiety can lead to further complications in terms of depression, which can lead to mental health problems, which in turn can undermine their ability to earn and work. That often leads into a cycle that makes both the indebtedness and the mental health suffering worse, as I know from my own experience. Sixty years ago, my father won the Grand National and 10 years later he suffered a life collapse from a combination of indebtedness, bankruptcy, mental health issues and head injuries, which in those days were not well treated. It is a sign of how far we have come as a society and as a politics that we now talk about these issues so much more openly and we offer so much more help.

I shall close with my third point, which relates to the importance of that taboo. So many people in our society still suffer in silence from debt, which knows no boundaries and is no respecter of class, political affiliation or geography. People who may appear at ease and prosperous—and often those who appear most that way—are struggling in misery behind the scenes and compounding that misery through their inability to feel confident enough to talk about it. That is why, along with the co-chair of the all-party group on inclusive growth, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne), we are working on a small campaign this summer with StepChange, the Money Advice Service, the Financial Conduct Authority and Martin Lewis called “Share not Shame” to encourage people to talk more openly about their indebtedness issues and to seek the help that is available. Many people in this country are paying far too much for debt that could be provided at a minimum—at a fraction of the price—and their debts could be rescheduled in a way that takes the pressure and shame from them. I welcome warmly the undertaking the Minister has given today and congratulate those Members who have led the campaign on this, which will signal across the country that this Parliament is taking their interests very seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and George Freeman

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[George Freeman]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We hear very little from the Labour party about Wales, where it is responsible for the health service, and an awful lot of questions about England, where fortunately it is not responsible. If we want to get pressure on A&E down, we need to integrate and invest as we are doing in prevention and in keeping people out of unnecessary A&E admission.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

23. The Health Foundation estimates that the gap in social care funding by 2020 will be £6 billion, not taking into account the increase in the minimum wage, so although the spending review narrows the gap, it still leaves an enormous gap which will result in further cuts in social care. How will the Government avoid the totally unacceptable situation in which those with money will still get good care and those without money will get substandard care or no care at all?

[George Freeman]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman. He is a Norfolk colleague and as Minister did a lot of work in this area. He raises an important point that as a society we need to think profoundly about how we integrate health and social care. As I say, the Government have made a £3.5 billion commitment from the new precept and the better care fund is a significant commitment, but he is right—we will have to go further. Through the devolution programme and the integration programme, we will have to develop more powers so that local health leaders and care council leaders can better integrate services to reduce unnecessary pressure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and George Freeman

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

It seems as if Labour is always desperately in search of a crisis, even if there is none to be found. If the hon. Gentleman had listened to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), he would have heard me say that there had been a 38% improvement in waiting times for ambulance handovers between last November and this November. I am sure that he will welcome that.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

I congratulate the Minister and the Government on the work that is being done to integrate social and NHS care. Does my hon. Friend agree that, for the many elderly patients moving between hospital care and community social care, integrated patient records across the two areas will significantly improve elderly care? Will he meet me and campaigners following Health questions to discuss my ten-minute rule Bill?

Mental Health

Debate between Norman Lamb and George Freeman

Thursday 16th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am sorry for putting the blame in the wrong place; I take full responsibility; I have tried to be responsive to Members as I have proceeded.

We are working with NHS England to decide how best to measure progress in these areas. Because, as we all know, words are not enough, we have to be certain that the objectives we have set out on paper actually translate into better, more accessible care for those who need it.

Thirdly, I mention the three outcome frameworks: for the NHS, adult social care, and public health. These frameworks will enable us to hold the health and care system to account for achieving what matters most—good outcomes for the people who use services and for the population as a whole. In the NHS outcomes framework, there are four measures that relate specifically to mental health and many others that include mental health just as much as physical health. The other outcomes frameworks contain other measures designed to ensure that we improve well-being and tackle the wider determinants of mental health, and that we provide the best possible care and support to those people with mental health problems who need it.

Finally, I want to mention our continuing commitment to the IAPT programme. Since the programme began, it has treated more than 1 million people with depression and anxiety, and as a result nearly 75,000 people have moved from benefits into work. Nevertheless, we need to do more. We are currently involved in a joint programme with the Department for Work and Pensions, which involves commissioning work to find a way of providing much speedier access to psychological therapies for people with mental health problems who are out of work. It seems crazy that we are spending money on benefits when giving those people access to therapy might help them to recover and return to work.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Lamb]

Very briefly.

[George Freeman]

I am sorry that I was not able to be present earlier. I pay tribute to the Government for the work they are doing, and to the Backbench Business Committee for raising this issue. Does the Minister agree that, on the role of mental health in mainstream health, there is important evidence concerning outcomes and compliance with mainstream medicine? Important work carried out in America by the United States Veterans Association and the American dementia and mental health societies has shown the importance of positive psychology in helping people to recover and play an active role in society.

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Gentleman has made some extremely good points.

The Government are implementing a diversion service to ensure that, as far as possible, people are diverted from the criminal justice system and from prison if that is not where they should be. If they are suffering from mental health problems, they should ideally be given treatment rather than being locked up inappropriately in prison.

Personal health budgets are a really good innovation, started by the last Government and continued by this one. Giving people—particularly those with mental health problems—power to determine their own priorities, and giving them some control over the resources available for their treatment, is an incredibly important development, for which I shall continue to proselytise at every opportunity.

In order to avoid any further trouble from the Backbench Business Committee—rather than from your good self, Mr Deputy Speaker—I shall draw my remarks to a close.

Today’s debate allows us to explore what more we can do to improve services for people with mental health problems, but as I said earlier it also allows us to encourage others to follow suit. We all have the same ultimate ambition—to provide excellent services and support for all who need it, when they need it—but if we are to achieve that ambition, all groups need to do their bit. We will not be able to do this alone. However, we can lay the groundwork to ensure that local leaders and local people can develop the excellent mental health care and treatment that can turn our common ambitions into reality.

I thank all Members who have spoken today. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing me to speak beyond my “guideline” time, and to explain what the Government are trying to do to improve access to, and the quality of, mental health treatment. Again, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam on securing the debate.

I am pleased to be able to count on my parliamentary colleagues to maintain the momentum of discussion of mental health in public forums, and I pay tribute to all who have spoken for their incredibly valuable contributions. I look forward to our third convention.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and George Freeman

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am certainly happy to have a discussion with the hon. Lady, and to look into the concerns she raises and get back to her on them.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

As the Minister is aware, the active involvement of patients in biomedical research is one of the areas in which Britain is increasingly leading. Yesterday, I chaired a meeting with my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) and the Empower: Access to Medicine group and Les Halpin, who is suffering from a terminal disease and is launching a campaign for greater patient involvement in access to rare drugs. Will the Minister meet me and my hon. Friend to take that forward?

[Norman Lamb]

I seem to be ready to agree to several meetings and I will certainly add that one to my list. I will be delighted to meet my hon. Friend—and I should also pay tribute to him for the work he is doing in this area.