National Health Service

Norman Lamb Excerpts

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

My hon. Friend mentioned Professor Allyson Pollock. Is he aware that she particularly highlighted the extraordinary amount of money spent under the previous Government on the private finance initiative, mortgaging the future of the NHS to the tune of more than £80 billion? In the course of the next Parliament, that will cost more than £11 billion.

[David T. C. Davies]

I commend the professor’s book, and I hope Labour Members read it, as well as looking at the NHS comparators between England and Wales, which they obviously have not done so far. I would like Labour Members to tell us whether—if they ever are in government; I hope they will not be—they will guarantee to continue with the cancer drugs fund, which has allowed thousands of people in England to live longer and more productive lives than they otherwise would have.

The situation is not the same in Wales, where these cancer drugs are routinely denied to people. I am talking about people such as my constituent Ann Wilkinson, who is also trying to care for a very ill husband but who has been denied Avastin. She has had to find other means to get it, and other seriously ill people in Wales have had to move to England or find people’s spare rooms to sleep in.

We heard something about cuts, but the reality is that we have guaranteed the NHS budget in England while it has been cut by about 8% in Wales. Thousands of people are members of Action for our Health, a group comprising people campaigning in Wales to be treated in England. Some people say that the NHS is the envy of the world, and perhaps it is, but the NHS in England is very much the envy of Wales. To see that we need only ask the thousands of people—ordinary patients—in a campaign group who want to be treated by the NHS that is run by this coalition Government and not by the NHS that is run by Labour.

I wish to finish by saying to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I congratulate him on the better ambulance response times he is delivering in England than Labour is delivering in Wales; on the better accident and emergency turnaround times he is delivering in England than Labour is delivering in Wales; on the shorter waiting lists in England than people face in Wales; and on the cancer drugs fund, allowing people to live longer in England than they otherwise would in Wales. Most of all, I congratulate him on protecting that NHS budget—on standing up for the NHS instead of cutting the budget, as the Labour party has done in Wales. I very much hope that he is able to continue with that good work in years to come.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

The NHS across the UK, including urgent and emergency care services, is facing enormous challenges. By the end of this Parliament, there will be nearly 1 million more over-65s than there were at its start, which means substantially more patients with more complex health needs, but such pressures are not unique to England. All hon. Members need to think very carefully about how we pursue the debate on the challenges and pressures that the NHS is facing. Patients and the NHS do not need or want cynicism and party point scoring. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) were absolutely correct to make that point.

[Sarah Newton]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the pioneer programme in Cornwall is really leading the way, with the provisional results showing a 41% reduction in A and E and in-patient visits?

[Norman Lamb]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The Cornwall pioneer programme is doing the most amazing work making innovative change, involving Age UK alongside local doctors, and it is delivering real results.

Why does the Labour party make constant claims that the NHS in England is in crisis, when the position is so much worse in Wales, where Labour is in power?

[Ian Austin]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Lamb]

In a moment.

Why does the Labour party claim that the reforms are to blame when there has been no reform in Wales, yet the position there is worse? What people need and want is an open and honest debate about what should be done to secure the future of the NHS. The motion is about the pursuit of votes, not the interests of patients. If Labour Members—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Norman Lamb]

Let me make this point.

If Labour Members are concerned about the interests of patients, why do they not agree to the suggestion by Professor Bruce Keogh, a respected clinician, for an investigation into safety in the Welsh NHS? Why do they remain silent?

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister accuses us of bringing politics into the NHS, but did not he and his colleagues put politics at its heart when they signed up to a Tory agenda to put market forces at the heart of the national health service?

[Norman Lamb]

That is absolute rubbish. Indeed, one of the right hon. Gentleman’s predecessors, the right hon. Member for Hull West and somewhere—

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, rather than “somewhere”.

[Norman Lamb]

I apologise, Mr Speaker. The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) spoke very candidly about the role of the private sector under the previous Labour Government, which the shadow Secretary of State constantly seeks to deny.

[Ian Austin]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Lamb]

No. I need to make progress, and I have very little time.

In a Guardian debate yesterday, in which I took part, Peter Carter, the respected chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, spoke of the need for political consensus

“so that we stop this ridiculous points-scoring”,

which

“frankly is destructive and does nothing to enhance the quality of the debate.”

Let us take his plea on board. I have argued for a non-partisan review of NHS and care budgets this year —whoever is in power—which would engage the public. We should all commit to that.

Labour claims that it will increase funding, but its proposed way of doing so appears to be unravelling before our eyes. Lord Mandelson has described the mansion tax as “sort of crude” and “sort of short-termist”. In the debate, the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) cast doubt on how much the policy would raise.

Before I address the main issues, I want to pick up the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, who raised important issues about mental health. He talked about the case of his constituent, Beth. It is intolerable that she has been shunted around the country. I have met the right hon. Gentleman, and I am happy to engage with him again. It is unacceptable for this to continue to happen. That is why there is an urgent need for children’s mental health services to be reformed, and our taskforce will soon report on the essential changes that are necessary.

[Liz Kendall]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Lamb]

I do not have time.

I am pleased that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle endorsed the case for access and waiting times standards in mental health, which I think will have the same transformative effect as they had in cancer care when his party was in government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) said, why is mental health not in the motion? It certainly ought to be.

[Liz Kendall]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Lamb]

Let me make this point.

I acknowledge that several Members, including the hon. Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), raised distressing cases. I offer my personal sympathies to everyone who has been let down by the system. Such cases should motivate us all to strive to do everything that we can to improve how our NHS operates and to address the areas where it falls short.

The Opposition claim that the move from NHS Direct to NHS 111 has increased the demand faced by accident and emergency departments. There is no evidence to support that claim. Only 8% of calls result in a recommendation to go to A and E, and 30% of callers say that they would have gone to A and E if NHS 111 had not been available.

An accusation has been made about the impact of local authority cuts on social care. I remind the Labour party that the Government were faced with a £160 billion black hole in the public finances and had to act to sort that out. There is still no proposal from the Labour party to increase the funding for social care. The claims that it makes are hollow, without the money to go with them.

Let us look at one of the key indicators: delayed discharges from hospital. From August 2010 to November 2014, delayed days attributable solely to social care decreased from 38,324 to 37,000. The position is not as simple as some people suggest. Social care is performing incredibly well under difficult circumstances. In Cambridgeshire, there is the brilliant development of a service for older people to address their needs in innovative ways.

It has been claimed that the closure of walk-in centres has led to the current pressures on A and E. Again, we need to look at the evidence. A report by Monitor found that the reasons why local commissioners decided to close walk-in centres included that they were replacing them with urgent care centres co-located with A and E departments or other models of integrating primary care staff in A and E departments. The situation is not as simple as is suggested by the claim that walk-in centres have been closed and A and E has been left to pick up the burden.

The Opposition have said that the ambulance service is failing. In fact, ambulance services nationally are delivering nearly 2,000 more emergency journeys every day than in 2010. Ambulances respond to the majority of life-threatening cases in less than eight minutes. The Government have provided an additional £50 million to support ambulance services through this winter. It is right to take clinical advice to ensure that target response times are clinically based to avoid the unintended consequences of ambulance crews being driven crazy in the pursuit of targets, when it is patient safety that should be prioritised.

I come to the solution. In the short term, the Government have made an additional £700 million available to the NHS to cope with the pressures this winter. The right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) did at least acknowledge that. In the longer term, we need to focus on stopping the crises from occurring in the first place. We need a much greater focus on prevention, better integration of health and social care, and the implementation of Simon Stevens’s forward view.

I thank NHS staff for the amazing work that they do, often under great pressure, and the tremendous commitment that they make. We owe it to them and to the public to ensure that our NHS is protected and enhanced. Most people who use urgent and emergency care services receive effective, timely treatment. That is as it should be. Patients and their families should get the right advice and should get a response when they need it. We set the toughest standards in the world, and rightly so. We all know that those standards are under pressure across the UK, so let us be open and honest about that.

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.