Legal Highs

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Norman Baker]

I will come to the steps that are being taken, but I want to stress at this point, since the hon. Gentleman has raised it, that a process is in place. We have appointed an expert panel based on the best brains in the country from various disciplines: law enforcement, those who have knowledge of drugs, those from the health regimes, those who understand the psychiatry of those who might use drugs and so on. The panel has been charged by me with finding the best way forward to minimise harms from those substances. That is its objective. It is therefore not for me to second-guess what the panel will come up with. The clear objective is to minimise harm, and I look to the panel for recommendations. I will come to the process in a moment. It would be wrong for me to rule anything in or out until the panel has had an opportunity to reflect and take professional advice as it is doing so. No doubt the hon. Gentleman’s points will be considered by the panel, along with everything else.

[Diana Johnson]

Will the Minister give us a time scale for when the review will report, because time is pressing in this Parliament?

[Norman Baker]

Time is pressing. I have been in post since October or thereabouts. The review panel was appointed in December and has almost concluded its work. I expect to have its final report on my desk in a couple of weeks’ time. The Government will reflect on the conclusions and we will publish our intentions shortly thereafter. That is our intention. I want to get a move on. There is no intention to delay matters. However, there is also no wish to end up with bad legislation that is rushed and might have unforeseen consequences. I stress that no country in the world has cracked the issue successfully. We have to look across the world at different practices to see what might apply best to our own situation.

Psychoactive Substances

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to his post. The Opposition were particularly pleased about his appointment to the Home Office. I thank him for his explanation of the Government’s position on this proposal.

The European Commission’s proposals are technical but important. We should be thankful for the work undertaken by members of the European Scrutiny Committee to assist our deliberations. As the Minister explained, the measures are an attempt to take an EU-wide approach to the problem of legal highs. No one in this House should underestimate the scale of the problem. The UN estimates that the UK has the largest legal highs market in the world. It is estimated that 670,000 young Britons aged 16 to 24 have taken legal highs.

Many of the figures on the scale of the problem already come from the EU through the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction. That agency found 73 new synthetic drugs in 2012, which is up from 49 in 2011. The rate of proliferation is increasing. At times this year, about two new substances have been arriving in the UK market every week. Hundreds have been catalogued in the marketplace. There are more than 500 internet shops that supply the substances to the UK market. There are also an unknown but increasing number of head shops on the high street.

It is therefore clear that there is some truth in the Commission’s assessment that member states have not been able effectively to respond to the threat posed by legal highs and that collective action is needed. The Commission is perhaps being unfair on several other member states that have taken action. Countries such as Ireland have been more proactive in responding to the rapid proliferation of the new drugs. The UK Government have been singularly ineffective in tackling this problem. That is why the UK market is now the largest in Europe.

[Norman Baker]

I just want to put the record straight. The hon. Lady mentioned that there were 49 new drugs in 2011. Only 17 of those crossed the channel to the UK and 14 of them were already controlled by the UK Government. Of the 73 in 2012, only 18 have been seen in the UK and eight had already been controlled.

[Diana Johnson]

I will come on to the discrepancies between the Home Office figures and the figures of other bodies. The Home Office does not have access to the figures on all the new legal highs that are available on the internet and in head shops.

I want to return to the EU proposal to introduce a cross-European response. The Commission proposes to strengthen the existing monitoring centre, the EMCDDA, to enable it to undertake assessments of new substances and determine how dangerous they are. That determination will inform a classification that is decided on by the Commission with some input from member states.

The Commission wants to address two problems through the proposals. The first and, going by the Commission’s documents, possibly the foremost, is the impediment to the legitimate trade in new psychoactive substances caused by restrictions imposed by individual member states. Secondly, the Commission recognises the public health need. From the drafting of the proposals, it could be construed that the Commission is giving that secondary status.

I agree with the evidence of the Minister for Immigration to the European Scrutiny Committee in which he said that it was not entirely clear what “mischief” the Commission was attempting to tackle. In the regulations, free trade appears to be afforded equal status to prevention of harm. The Opposition share the Government’s surprise that the regulation is justified under the legal auspices of protecting free trade, rather than article 5 concerns relating to justice and home affairs. That focus is surprising given that even the Commission recognises that only a small, unquantifiable percentage of new psychoactive substances have a legitimate use.

The European Scrutiny Committee states that the

“trade in new psychoactive substances for legitimate purposes is difficult to quantify”.

I agree with its conclusion:

“Given that uncertainty, as well as the known risks associated with their recreational use, we do not consider that new psychoactive substances should necessarily be treated in the same way as other tradable commodities… Divergent national rules cited by the Commission as an obstacle to legitimate trade, in our view, often reflect differing cultural and societal attitudes towards the regulation of drugs”.

Although the Opposition have some reservations about the Commission’s motivations, we are willing to engage in addressing the health harms posed by legal highs. We also give the Commission some credit for recognising that harm.

Reading the Commission’s proposal, however, it is not clear how it would determine harm. Article 7 lays out the procedure for risk assessment connected with the substance, and article 10 states the conditions for the determination of levels of health, social and safety risks, following the risk assessment. Article 9 deals with urgent public health requirements, while articles 11, 12 and 13 lay out three levels of control, depending on the level of risk identified. It is important to note for article 11 and substances deemed a low risk that that would mean no restrictions at all.

That does not give an entirely satisfactory account of how the EMCDDA would determine the level of harm associated with each drug. The articles I have mentioned lay out a process, but it is not entirely clear that the EMCDDA will have the evidence available to make classifications that correspond to the level of harm outlined. EMCDDA assessments would not extend to clinical trials, and it is therefore not clear how it would be in a position to rule out addictiveness, long-term psychological harm, or the effect of combining the drugs with alcohol.

It is important to remember that most deaths associated with legal highs come about accidentally, and I am not convinced that the Commission’s proposals adequately explain how the EMCDDA would account for such dangers. Perhaps the Minister will set out the Government’s position on that point, and say what representations the UK Government have made to the Commission. It is also not clear how such proposals will impact on the UK’s capacity to determine our own classification system—a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock).

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Thursday 31st October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I have already mentioned the websites we have introduced, which have had over 1 million hits since 2010. We are also taking clear action on online abuse and have published documents this year taking forward our strategy. I intend to make it a high priority during my time in office.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Despite the commitment that the Prime Minister made in this House that police would be able to retain the DNA of individuals arrested but not charged with rape, we now know that over the summer the police have had to destroy the DNA records of thousands of suspected sex offenders before the appeals process is introduced at the beginning of next month. Has not that shocking incompetence by the Government put more women and girls at risk?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I sympathise with the point that my hon. Friend is making. The governors’ arrangements for the bridge are part of the review that we are undertaking. We inherited an unsustainable position from the previous Government in relation to the bridge. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury and I are very concerned about this and we are determined to make progress if we can on this matter and others.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

In the general election, the Liberal Democrats ran a “Ditch the Humber Bridge Debt” campaign. In the light of the Minister’s decision to endorse the 11% increase, should he not think again? Is this not another example of the Lib Dems’ promises in the manifesto being broken now they are in government?

[Norman Baker]

I think that what the hon. Lady wanted to say was that we have decided, since the election, to offer a reduced interest rate on the Humber Bridge Board’s debt, which will save the board £48 million in interest payments over the next five years.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

As I mentioned, we are having a review of signs generally and that suggestion is being considered as part of that process. The difficulty is that the flashing amber signal already has a specific legal meaning in this country, where it is used to indicate legal precedence for pedestrians at pelican crossings. That means that we could not authorise a trial or the use of the flashing amber signal for any other application without first changing the meaning of the signal in regulations. A dual meaning might not be a very good idea.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

4. What assessment he has made of the effect of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review on road improvement schemes in east Yorkshire.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Diana Johnson

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

15. What recent assessment he has made of the effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review in respect of the bus service operators grant on local bus services and fares.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

We estimate that the 20% reduction in bus service operators grant from 2012-13 would lead to a potential increase in average fares of around 1.5%. However, the bus industry is hopeful that, in general, this reduction could be absorbed without fares having to rise.

[Diana Johnson]

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has told people to get on the bus to look for work. What does the Minister say to my constituents in Kingswood and Bransholme, which are on the outskirts of Hull, who are looking for work, but are worried that the cuts that are being implemented will lead to a reduction in the less profitable bus services, as well as higher fares for people who are struggling already?

[Norman Baker]

We want to see more people on buses but, as I have indicated, the reduction in BSOG is less than the average reduction in the Department’s revenue budget, which recognises the importance of the bus network. When I spoke to the industry following the spending review announcement, it indicated that the cut was so minimal that it hoped that it could absorb it without fares having to rise, which is what we hope will happen.