Historical Child Abuse Allegations

Norman Baker Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) about a very important and serious Northern Ireland matter. I commend her on the powerful case that she has made.

The coalition Government is totally committed to tackling child sexual abuse and its serious and often long-lasting effects. As the Home Secretary said in her statement to this House on 7 July when she announced the establishment of a panel inquiry, we will do all that we can to facilitate a full investigation of child sexual abuse and the prosecution of its perpetrators. Let me take this opportunity again to urge anyone with information about those matters to go to the police.

The independent panel inquiry into child sexual abuse will consider whether public bodies—and other, non-state, institutions—have taken seriously their duty of care to protect children from sexual abuse. In her statement to the House this week, the Home Secretary announced the final panel members. They will join Ben Emmerson QC—who will serve as counsel—and Professor Alexis Jay, whose names were announced last week. The expert panel will examine the diverse range of matters that will fall within its purview. The panel itself represents a diverse range of experience, including experience of child sexual abuse, social care, academia, law enforcement, health, media, and the voluntary sector. The panel, under the chairmanship of Fiona Woolf, will carry out a robust and thorough inquiry and will challenge individuals and institutions without fear or favour, in order to consider this important issue, to learn the relevant lessons, and to prevent it from happening again.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

The Minister will know of my concern about the Ministry of Defence being able to hide details and incidents relating to child sexual abuse by covering it with the system of courts martial. May I urge him to make sure the Home Office pushes very hard for the MOD not to use that process to hide things, and to make sure that any case that involves the MOD is put into the civil courts and dealt with properly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Baker]

My hon. Friend raised that issue at Home Office questions last week and I undertook to write to her, which I will do very shortly, and my officials are in touch with MOD officials to make sure the best possible response is given to her on that matter.

The terms of reference for the Home Office inquiry—if I can call the Fiona Woolf inquiry that—have been drafted to ensure that this strong and balanced panel of independent experts can have full access to all the material it seeks, unless there is a statutory impediment to it doing so. The panel will consider matters from 1970 to the present day, although this can be extended if evidence is provided that supports this, and I believe that the Child Migrants Trust, for example, may submit evidence to that effect, including about Northern Ireland matters. It is for the panel to decide how and where to focus its efforts in order to complete its work and to make recommendations within a reasonable time scale. The terms of reference have been finalised and a copy has been placed in the House Library. The panel has committed to provide an update to Parliament before May next year.

As set out in its terms of reference, and as referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East, the independent panel inquiry will extend to England and Wales only, and there are very good and powerful reasons for that. I know how concerned hon. Members are about the horrible offences that took place at Kincora and about the perception that justice for the victims of those terrible crimes has not been properly served. I entirely understand those concerns. I am also aware of the concern expressed in the debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and know that that deep concern is shared by all the people of Northern Ireland.

The coalition Government is determined that everything possible is done to uncover the truth about what happened and that appropriate action is taken. If there is any difference of view, it is only on the way in which this should be done.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The Minister referred to the debate in the Assembly. There was a great degree of cross-community consensus that this should be done as part of a national inquiry. Normally the Government’s response to Northern Ireland issues is, “Well, if you can get a consensus among the parties in the Assembly, we will do that.” Why is that not the response in this case?

[Norman Baker]

Let me move on with my remarks, which I hope will respond to that important question.

The issues relating to Kincora are being examined by the historical institutional abuse inquiry under Sir Anthony Hart’s chairmanship. Currently, the view of Ministers across government is that this is the most appropriate place where all allegations related to Kincora should be examined.

Because the protection of children is a devolved matter—I accept the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East that she feels certain matters have been dealt with fully—it would clearly be less appropriate for the inquiry panel chaired by Fiona Woolf to make recommendations for Northern Ireland concerning the running of the current child protection system there. Indeed, legislation was enacted in Northern Ireland specifically to enable Sir Anthony’s examination to take place.

[Mark Durkan]

The Minister said it is currently “the view of Ministers across government” and then went on to refer to things being devolved matters. I hope he is not trying to imply that Ministers in Northern Ireland are agreed that the Home Office inquiry is not the appropriate place for Kincoral because that is not what those Ministers are saying.

[Norman Baker]

I am giving the official Government response which, of course, covers all Ministers in all Departments. That is the doctrine of collective responsibility.

I understand that Sir Anthony’s inquiry intends to examine allegations made to it by ex-residents of Kincora and has already heard evidence from a number of witnesses on this matter. Sir Anthony has said that if his inquiry finds evidence that anyone other than the three men convicted was aware of, or involved in, the sexual abuse of Kincora residents then, irrespective of their prominence, it will investigate their knowledge of, and any role they may have played in, such matters. I commend his approach.

Furthermore, the Hart inquiry has wide powers of compulsion, under section 9 of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse Act (Northern Ireland) 2013, to require persons and bodies to produce evidence, although, respecting the fact that it is a body established by the devolved authorities, those powers do not extend to the UK Government, which is one of the issues my hon. Friend was concerned about in her opening remarks. It is important to put it on the record, however, that this is a statutory inquiry and can therefore compel persons to give evidence. The independent inquiry panel into child sexual abuse, established by the Home Secretary, will have no such powers of compulsion unless a decision is subsequently made to turn it into a statutory inquiry.

[Naomi Long]

I appreciate the Minister’s point about the powers of compulsion, but it is for the Home Office to set the terms of the national inquiry, so the powers of compulsion could be given and put on a statutory footing. Secondly, Sir Anthony Hart’s powers of compulsion, as stated clearly in his letter and reiterated in his comments today, only extend to those matters which are transferred, not to issues such as the security and intelligence service, the Ministry of Defence, MI5 and others.

[Norman Baker]

I fully accept that, and as I shall say later, if evidence is produced or there is a request from Fiona Woolf’s panel for this to be turned into a statutory inquiry, the Home Office will consider that at that point.

I accept that, because the Hart inquiry’s powers of compulsion do not extend to the UK Government, concern has been expressed as to whether it will be able to deal effectively with the allegations of misconduct and cover-up regarding the horrific events that occurred at Kincora. My hon. Friend referred to allegations of blackmail and cover-up. I make it perfectly plain from the Dispatch Box that I expect those matters to be dealt with by Sir Anthony Hart’s inquiry, and it would be incomplete if it did not do so. I will also encourage him to make it very clear if he feels that his efforts to uncover the truth are in any way being thwarted. Thirdly, I make it plain that there was no intention on the Government’s part to engage in any cover-up. Our only interest is to get to the truth of this matter.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Surely the allegations of involvement by MI5 make this not a provincial Northern Ireland issue but a national one requiring a national inquiry. That is what we are saying: MI5’s alleged involvement gives this issue a national perspective, so there should be a national inquiry.

[Norman Baker]

As I have said, if Sir Anthony Hart feels he is being thwarted or he requires further information for his inquiry, he should say so, publicly, if he wishes. Similarly, if Fiona Woolf believes that her inquiry should be converted into a statutory inquiry, she can say so. We do not have a closed mind on these matters.

I would like to set out how the concern that the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East referred to is being addressed. As the Northern Ireland Secretary said in her statement yesterday, all Government Departments and agencies that receive a request for information or documents from the Hart inquiry will co-operate to the utmost of their ability in determining what material that they hold might be relevant to it regarding matters for which they have responsibility, in accordance with the terms of reference of the inquiry. The Northern Ireland Office has already started this process by disclosing to the inquiry a list of files held by it which relate to the Kincora boys’ home. In parallel, the Ministry of Defence has begun work to establish whether it holds any documents that are relevant to the inquiry, and other UK Departments and agencies will do likewise.

It will be important for the Northern Ireland inquiry to determine whether either the Security Service or the MOD has documents that are relevant to it. The Northern Ireland Secretary has been clear that a detailed plan of action for achieving this is being worked on as a matter of urgency.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being extremely generous. On the question of what information and papers may be held, will that also extend to looking at notices of destruction for some files for that period, to find out whether there was a pattern of destroying some of the information that is critical in this case?

[Norman Baker]

It is for Sir Anthony Hart to take forward his inquiry; it is not for me to determine exactly what he should look for. However, clearly, if he believes that there has been a pattern of destruction, that, in my view, would be relevant to the inquiry he is holding.

I hope that what I, the Northern Ireland Secretary and the Home Secretary have said will to some extent allay the concerns expressed in this debate. I am strengthened in that view by what Sir Anthony Hart himself has said on this matter. I shall quote him at some length, because his comments are relevant and it is important to put them on the record. He said:

“My HIA Inquiry panel colleagues and I welcome the written statement made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to the House of Commons in which she has given assurances that all Departments of HM Government and its agencies will co-operate to the utmost of their ability with the HIA Inquiry into Kincora. We are satisfied that the assurance of full co-operation by all Government Departments and agencies, and the satisfactory resolution by HM Government of the other issues the Inquiry has raised with it, will provide our HIA Inquiry with the ability and financial resources to carry out an effective and thorough investigation into all the Kincora allegations. However, should it become apparent during our work that it is necessary to have powers under the Inquiries Act 2005 then we will ask OFMDFM (Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minster) and HM Government to confer such powers on our Inquiry.”

So Sir Anthony Hart appears to be robust in his determination, as we are in ours, to uncover the truth of this horrible matter.

Taking all these strands together, I hope that this reassures those on both sides of the House that we have set out the best possible approach to bring justice to all the victims of these dreadful crimes. However, the coalition Government has made a commitment to monitor carefully the extent to which the inquiry is able to make progress in respect of material relevant to Kincora. We will look at the situation again if the inquiry tells us that it is unable to determine the facts. In the event that this were to occur, there remains the possibility of seeking agreement to bring the Kincora allegations within the terms of reference of the inquiry panel, along with the option of converting it into a statutory inquiry. We have not closed our minds on these matters, but we want to see how they unfold.

I repeat that we have no interest in any cover-up, and that we are interested in getting to the truth, just as the hon. Lady and her colleagues from Northern Ireland are. I again commend them for the efforts that they have made in the House today and outside it to take this important matter forward. I think I speak for all of us here today when I say that we share a passionate belief that children have a fundamental right to protection, and that, where there have been failings by institutions, we will leave no stone unturned in rooting them out.

Question put and agreed to.