European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Nigel Evans and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The hon. Gentleman will answer that intervention through the prism of amendment 1, please.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Of course, Mr Evans. Amendment 1 is essentially about delaying our approval of this measure until such time as the eurozone countries have agreed, signed and sealed it. That is a very sensible way forward. The hon. Gentleman is right, and I and others have made the point a number of times that there are examples of single currencies that have been dissolved in an orderly and managed way. When the Soviet Union was dissolved, the first thing its countries did, wisely, was to create their own currencies. Such countries were able to choose an appropriate parity and interest rate, and to do what was necessary to make their own economies work well in relation to others. That is obviously the way forward, and in the journals it is increasingly being said that the dismantling of the euro, which would enable countries to reflate their economies, would be far less painful than what is happening now in some of the eurozone’s weaker countries, which is dreadful for working people. There is mass unemployment and falling living standards, and growth in Greece has fallen by upwards of 20%. They really are in serious pain and difficulty, and it could not be worse if they re-created the drachma, devalued and started selling cheap holidays to British people who want to enjoy the sunshine of Greece. That is their way forward, and the same is true for other countries.

There has been talk about how to help our Irish friends. I have many Irish friends and constituents, and I have said before—even last week—that the way forward for the Irish is to persuade them to re-create the punt, depreciate and come to a sensible parity with sterling. We are their major economic partner, and they belong much more in the sterling zone than the eurozone. That would be massively beneficial to the Irish, including the relatives of many of the people who live in my constituency.

Delay is absolutely sensible and the right thing to do. I ask that, even now, the Government consider delaying our ratification until such time as the eurozone countries have all signed and sealed the deal.

Adult Social Care

Debate between Nigel Evans and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 16th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) was kind enough to say that people of a pensionable age can sometimes make useful contributions. He is very kind to me—I am the only Member of a pensionable age to speak in the debate. I am 37 in my mind, but with a son of 42, that is rather unlikely.

The Government have failed at the core of the White Paper on the question of funding. This is about money, not leadership or consensus or saying nice words in the Chamber. I am very pleased that Labour Front Benchers have accepted Dilnot. His proposals are not perfect, but he goes a long way to proposing a free national care service, which my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and I want.

I know Andrew Dilnot well—he is a fine, highly intelligent and compassionate man. He went to great lengths to tailor a precise scheme that could be accepted by the Government, but at the last minute, they have buckled and not committed to it. The problem is the Treasury—the worst Government Department of all. It has failed the country over and over again with terrible mistakes. The European exchange rate mechanism destroyed the credibility of the Conservatives, but the Treasury has done lots of other bad things. It is a dreadful Department. I hope that Ministers now tell me how wonderful it is.

There has been almost no mention of the royal commission on long-term care from some 14 years ago—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon mentioned it—which recommended free long-term care, which is precisely what he and I want. However, the Government at the time—they happened to be a Government I supported—could see that the report was going to be unanimous, so they slotted in two people at the last minute to ensure that it was not unanimous, and from that point onwards they hung on to the minority report of those two members. It was a bit of a disgrace, and I made that point strongly. I tabled an early-day motion in the 1997 to 2001 Parliament calling for implementation of the royal commission’s recommendations, which was signed by more than 100 Members of the House at that time, and in the 2001 to 2005 Parliament I tabled another early-day motion saying the same thing, again with the same sort of support. I also have the support of the National Pensioners Convention—a body with which I am closely associated—which also wants free long-care on the same basis as in the NHS.

In Scandinavia they do it. Indeed, what I have always wanted my party to do—as well as the others, but particularly mine—is to move in the direction of Scandinavia, not the United States of America. If Members read the book “The Spirit Level”, they can see that the civilised societies—where people are happier and all sorts of social problems are lesser—are in the Scandinavian- style countries. The worst end of the spectrum is in America, and we have been steadily moving towards the American end, not the Scandinavian end.

In the end it is about cost and this word “affordability”. We choose what is affordable. It is not written in stone: we can choose to make things affordable, and we can choose to pay for them by progressive taxation—if we wish. It is a political choice. People say, “Oh, well it’s not affordable.” However—I have told this story many times—I remember that when my children were young, if they asked for a second ice cream, my wife would say to them, “Mummy can’t afford it,” when what she was really saying was: “You can’t have another ice cream.” Of course she could afford it. We can afford to pay for free long-term care too, but we choose not to—so far. I hope to persuade my side at least to commit to it in time.

The extra costs of Dilnot would initially be £2 billion a year. That is the equivalent of 0.5p on the standard rate of income tax. I have put this to many people in meetings and asked them, “What would you choose: the threat that your home would be taken away, with no equity to hand on to your grandchildren, or an extra 0.5p on the standard rate?” Without exception, they say 0.5p on the standard rate. Of course, we do not have to do it that way, because there is plenty of cash in the tax gap, which is estimated to be as much as £120 billion a year, or even more. If we collected a tiny fraction of that—one sixtieth—we could cover Dilnot’s proposals; and, if we have to have a bit more, let us squeeze the tax gap a bit further. However, since Margaret Thatcher’s time as Prime Minister, we have seen the standard rate cut by 5p, which is 10 times more than the cost of Dilnot, so do not let us pretend that it not affordable. We choose not pay for it, because we think—or some people think—that low taxes are better or that letting tax evaders and tax avoiders get away with it is better than looking after elderly people in great need.

We are also committed, apparently—I understand that this goes for both sides of the House—to the idea of owner occupation, but we are actually seeing the gradual erosion of owner occupation, particularly by poorer people having their houses taken away when—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order.