Universal Credit and Working Tax Credit

Debate between Nigel Evans and Jonathan Reynolds

Monday 18th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Reynolds]

We believe that this uplift should stay in place during the crisis, and I do not think anyone believes that the crisis will end in April. I will make some points about long-term proposals near the end of my speech, as well as about why the whole system requires much more considerable reform than just tinkering around with the core amount.

The cost of paying for all this is significant: around £6 billion. That would vary depending on the levels of unemployment throughout the year, but any measure right now that cuts public spending or raises taxes in the middle of the biggest economic downturn for 300 years would be the wrong policy. Decisions will have to be made as we get into the middle of this decade to address the levels of debt that have been accrued by the Government during this crisis, but that is not the right choice now.

I want to focus on the point raised by the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), because if the Government are seriously thinking about economic recovery, cutting universal credit is like pulling the rug from under the economy’s feet. This £20 a week is not saved by families; it is spent in shops and businesses across the country, stimulating the economy. We all agree that this pandemic and the unemployment crisis will not be over by April this year, and whatever protestations we have heard on social media or in the press—and, frankly, however people vote today—I know that there are many people on the Government Benches who agree with this case. The former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), recently said:

“Withdrawing the uplift would reduce the spending power of people on lowest incomes. This will likely reduce consumption, meaning families going without essentials and household debts rising. It would also see a reduction in spending just when the economy needs it most.”

I could not agree more with that assessment. He is also right to draw attention to the levels of personal debt for some households.

As well as the real value of benefits being historically low as we went into this crisis, the pandemic has meant very real additional costs for most families. There are more meals for people to cook at home, and more days to heat their house. People have devices and lights on at times they would not normally, and have to buy what they need to teach their children at home. The clinically vulnerable have been forced to buy food locally, at a higher cost than in larger supermarkets. Everyone has experienced the pandemic differently, but for some the costs have piled on.

Citizens Advice told me this week that three quarters of the people it helps with debt who currently receive universal credit and working tax credit would have a negative budget if the £20 was cut. That means that they will have less money coming in than going out, and will not be able to cover basic essentials such as food or heating—and it will come at a time when one in three households has lost income because of covid, and 7.3 million people are behind on their bills.

The proposed cut to universal credit and working tax credit is not the only issue causing consternation in the country right now. I would particularly highlight the continuing injustice for those people on employment and support allowance and jobseeker’s allowance, who did not even get the uplift to begin with. That is unjustifiable and discriminatory, and I ask the Minister if he would mind specifically referencing that point in his speech. Reversing the April cut to universal credit is a specific, clear and unavoidable decision that needs to be taken, which is why it is right that we are bringing it to Parliament today.

Some of the speeches that we will hear today will no doubt say that we should focus on jobs and getting people back to work, and not on social security. The Prime Minister said something along these lines at the Liaison Committee last week, but Members will know that universal credit is an in-work as well as an out-of-work benefit—40% of universal credit claimants are in work—so that argument does not work at all. To be frank, it would be helpful if someone told the Prime Minister that. Universal credit is also means-tested, so if people go back to work and do not qualify for it, they will not receive it at all. If we want to have a serious discussion about boosting employment and making work pay, let us discuss work allowances, the taper rate and deductions, but let not the Government try to use that as an excuse to do the wrong thing on this cut.

Others might say that support should be more targeted and the basic allowance is the wrong element to target. In that case, the Government would, logically, scrap the two-child limit or the benefit cap, which disproportionately affect people in the most difficulty—larger families in areas with higher housing costs. However, when we put that forward, it, too, was rejected.

Finally, there has been a proposal for a one-off payment to compensate people affected by this cut. That is an awful idea. It does not address the real-terms reduction in support, just as unemployment is expected to peak. More than that, although 6 million families are affected by this now, that cohort will change in composition throughout the year. A one-off payment based on who is eligible now will fail to support some of the people who need that help the most. So please, Minister, ask the Chancellor to think that one through again.

I know it sometimes frustrates Conservative Members that we are still determined to replace UC altogether—I was asked that question earlier—but I say to them that, if they will not listen to those on the Opposition Front Bench, they should read the work of the cross-party Select Committee on Work and Pensions and read the report of the cross-party House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, which is chaired by Lord Forsyth. They are clear and robust in highlighting the fundamental problems that currently exist: the five-week wait; the two-child limit; the erratic assessment period; the problems with paying for childcare in arrears; and the shocking design that means that many disabled people are worse off on UC. The last one of those is very personal to me and it simply is not right not to replicate how the severe disability premium worked under the previous arrangements. All this means that UC’s brand is severely tarnished. If everything was working as well as Ministers sometimes say, would we really be a country where food banks have gone from being a niche form of support, mainly for those without recourse to public funds, to a mainstream and essential method of keeping people fed? Would we have had the fundamental increase in child poverty, which is getting bigger with every year of Conservative government? Those questions deserve answers.

Throughout the crisis, the Government have often been behind the curve, never out in front, and they have left some decisions, such as on furlough extension, to the very last minute, in a reckless game of brinkmanship. That is heavily why we have, tragically, the highest death toll in Europe and the biggest economic downturn of any major economy. Let us not repeat that with this decision. We all know that families are looking at us, wondering what we will do to help make getting through this crisis just that bit easier. What they do not expect is the Government making it even harder. I hope that one thing we can all agree on is that the crisis has shone a light on some of the problems in the UK, problems that have made tackling the pandemic harder and provoked a discussion about what kind of society we want to rebuild when the pandemic is over.

If the ambition of Conservatives really is to level up the UK, it is hard to see how they can support a cut that would be so regressive to low-income families and which disproportionately affects the places the Government say they want to help. I am talking about families such Bethany and her child in Blackpool. She said to me, “I was made redundant due to coronavirus. As a single parent to a one-year-old, universal credit is now the only income I receive. If the Government does cut £20 a week, I will become one of the statistics needing to use a food bank. It devastates me to think that I will not be able to provide for my child should this decision be finalised.” Margaret, who has been volunteering at a food bank in Luton, says, “A young man came in for a food parcel. He looked thin and his face was grey. He sat down and he said that he thought he could last with no food until the universal credit came through, but he found that he couldn’t. He’d come in on a Wednesday and his universal credit was due on the Friday.” That is the reality before the cut has gone ahead. My inbox is full of personal accounts such as those. I urge every Member to look at what is in their inbox, read about the human cost of what it will be like for people if this cut goes ahead, address the worries people have about not being able to put food on the table, and think long and hard about the uncertainty and fear that all families face after 10 long, hard months of this pandemic.

I want to make a special appeal to the new MPs on the Conservative Benches whose constituents elected them in good faith for the first time in 2019. Many of those people are the first Conservative to ever be elected to those places. They have already made history and their success is a significant personal achievement. They will be remembered, but so will their votes. Most of all, when thinking about how to cast their vote today, I urge everyone to take a moment to reflect on what this cut will mean to the people who send us here: the uncertainty it will add in an already uncertain time; the loss it will bring when we have already lost so much; the fear it will cause when what people need is hope. So, for our constituents, for the economy and for the national interest, we need to cancel this cut and I ask every Member of the House today to support our motion to do so.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Before I call the Minister, I have three points to make. As people in the Chamber can see on the annunciator—I am not sure whether people can see it at home—there is a three-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions. For those who are contributing outside the Chamber, there is a timing clock, which you should be able to see on the bottom right hand corner of whatever device you are using. It would be a lot cleaner if Members could bring their contributions to a close before the three-minute limit is up, otherwise you will be interrupted by the Chair. For the convenience of everyone as well, the question will be put at 7.15 before we move on to the next business.

Universal Credit: North-West

Debate between Nigel Evans and Jonathan Reynolds

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to see a fellow north-west MP in the Chair for this important debate, Mr Nuttall. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) on securing the debate, and indeed on the impressive work she has done since being elected to Parliament. St Helens is a place with similar issues to my borough, Tameside, so it is excellent that she is raising them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) is also present. She, too, represents Tameside, which was a universal credit pathfinder area, so we were one of the first parts of the country to experience some of the problems related to it. No matter what political perspective a person has going into the debate on welfare rights and the welfare system, it is important to listen to relevant experience, where it exists, of how universal credit has functioned so far. I should say at the outset that I completely support the goal of simplifying our welfare system—I do not think anyone in this country would not want that.

Like many Members, I use the Child Poverty Action Group handbook to help constituents when they come to me with problems. The handbook is sometimes referred to as the bible of welfare rights; indeed, it is the same size and written in a similar font as the Bible. That indicates the complexity of the system, so of course people should be trying to simplify it. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) said, we cannot get away from the reality that many people lead complex lives and have complex needs. The system must function in a way that gives them the support they need.

A number of the issues that come up at my constituency surgery that I wanted to raise have already been mentioned, but they are so important that I want to reiterate why they are key to making the system work properly. The first one is the first payment that people get. In my experience, there are immediate problems for people when they try to access universal credit because of how the system is designed. It is not a teething problem with the roll-out, but a structural flaw in how universal credit has been created. A lot of people are immediately put into a position where they struggle to afford food and heating. That simply does not seem to tally with the goal of supporting people into and out of the workplace. Instead of giving them a professional and efficient service when they need it, it often robs them of their dignity and puts them into crisis.

Like other Members present, at times of my life I have had to access support from the welfare system, particularly the tax credit system, which is almost always the case for those who have children at quite a young age. It did not lead me into a life of welfare dependency—it arguably led me to a worse life, as I ended up here in the House of Commons. Nevertheless, that is an important point, because so much of the Government’s rhetoric is based on the assumption that there are two sets of people in the country: an underclass of welfare recipients who must be punished and whipped back into the workplace, and everyone else who suffers from having to pay for the system. If that is the Government’s mindset going into the designing of a welfare benefit, the welfare system will simply never be designed in an appropriate fashion to meet the objectives of the people who have been described in this debate.

[Mr Nigel Evans]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has brought up the question of whether that is what the Government intend, because the answer is clearly no. The greatest dignity that we can give to anyone is the dignity of work and employment. That is the main thrust of what the Government want to see. Getting people off benefits and into full-time work will provide them with dignity and give their children a role model to follow.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I do not doubt the hon. Gentleman’s motivation. Before the debate we exchanged some comments about that sense of there being a group of taxpayers paying for the welfare system and a group of people in receipt of welfare benefits. That is not the way to design a welfare system. We cannot do it in a way that divides the country so simply into those arbitrary classifications. Indeed, if we do that, it is impossible to design an effective system.

I mentioned the issues relating to the first universal credit payment. People have to wait a long time, because it is designed to be paid five to six weeks in arrears. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) said in an intervention, the assumption is that they are in the workplace and receiving a monthly salary in arrears, so they will have that support before receiving universal credit. I say this completely genuinely: that is not how the economy of my constituency works. A great many people are still paid weekly or fortnightly. A lot of people have different levels of income week by week because of zero-hours contracts. That does not seem to have been considered in the level of detail required to design how and when people will receive the support that they need.

Delays occur in any bureaucratic system, but there is an even bigger structural flaw in universal credit that I have heard about several times in my constituency surgeries. If someone applies for universal credit on the wrong day—perhaps one or two days before they really “should” apply; in other words, when they have lost their job but before they have received their final pay cheque from their former employer—the system becomes disastrous for them. We must bear in mind that a lot of people, on finding out that they are going to be made redundant, would go to the jobcentre to look at the available support. If they apply for universal credit but receive a further pay cheque from their employer, they will wait not five to six weeks but 10 to 11. That is an enormous problem that must be looked at. If that happens—if someone has to know exactly when to apply for the support to which they are entitled—it will go far beyond the current level of complexity. That would have to be sorted out before any national roll-out.

I have raised those points because we have to find a way to get a supportive system that copes with people going into and out of the workplace—regular or temporary work—in a way that does not completely reset the system and cause all kinds of problems if they then go back into work. That is what I mean when I say that we should not split the country with an arbitrary classification of those in work and those out of work and receiving welfare benefits.

Whenever problems with universal credit are raised, the Government say that advance payments can sort out all the problems, whether with housing arrears, heating or food. That is the first question I ask people who come to see me with problems with universal credit, and a lot of them tell me that they have not been told about the advance payments system. I do not know what the experience of other hon. Members is, but advance payments do not seem to be programmed into the initial assessment. If a person does not know about the advance payment system, they have an even bigger problem, because they cannot claim an advance payment if they are a number of days past their initial assessment. If people accessing unemployment benefits for the first time face a confusing system that does not give them the funding they are entitled to, given that they have paid into the system, and that prevents them from getting back into the workplace, that is not an improvement on the current system. There has been a lot of party political advertising of the employment rate, the Government’s successes, childcare and all that, but we need to look at these genuine, serious problems.

Despite the objective of simplifying the system, the roll-out would have been disastrous in my area if it were not for our welfare rights advisers. To my mind, the staff of Tameside citizens advice bureau are absolute heroes. The reality is that that kind of support is being stripped from all communities. Law centres and citizens advice bureaux are closing. If the system is to work, we have got to give people impartial, fair advice. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) made a fair comment about how people can get in touch with welfare advisers. That is important, and it is sad to see welfare advisers going at a time when people need them.

Universal credit is a big change, and if people do not have support to access it properly, their perception of it will be negative. We have to ensure that that is not the case. From my casework and experience, from what is happening in other parts of the country and from people’s testimonies, my overwhelming impression is that, despite the scale of the bureaucratic challenge of moving to universal credit, we are not tackling the big problems of our social security system. We are not providing sufficient support for people who have lost their job for the very first time—particularly during the global finance crisis—and who never thought they would be unemployed. When they find out what their national insurance contributions will buy, they are often frankly disgusted at the level of support available to them.

We are not tackling the sanctions, the conditionality and the job search criteria. Frankly, I think we are treating a lot of people like children and robbing them of their dignity. We are not giving them what they should reasonably expect when they access the welfare system. Most of all, the system is unable to cope with the flexible working patterns that are so common in our economy. Many people do not have jobs for life; often, they do not even have jobs that last for years. The system has to reflect that, but I do not think those things have been priced in. Despite the bureaucracy and our overall level of spending on the social security system, people in my constituency have been left genuinely destitute and reliant on charity and food banks to survive. That cannot be right. Given the resources we put into the system, there has to be a better way to do it.

I think we need an even more radical approach. We should look to other countries for best practice. Concepts such as basic income do not lead to a taper problem and do not disincentivise people from going back into the workplace; rather, people are supported in different stages of their lives and everybody gets something out of the system for what they pay into it. That is the direction in which we have got to be looking. We need something more radical than universal credit. Universal credit, if it worked properly, would be welcome, but at the moment there are huge teething and design problems. Even once those problems are sorted, it will not tackle the big problems of the welfare system. Let us sort those problems out, but let us not end the conversation about welfare reform here. Let us address the challenges and create a system that truly works for everybody.

Assisted Dying (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Jonathan Reynolds

Friday 11th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Reynolds]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Mr Nigel Evans]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Some Members will have sat throughout the debate today and will have decided that they will not register a vote as they cannot make up their minds. Will you confirm that outside of voting in both Lobbies, which is strongly discouraged, there is no way in which a Member of Parliament can register an abstention following a debate?