Wales Bill

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point. The intention of this Bill is to provide that clarity, from which there will be the opportunity for greater communication. All Members in this House and stakeholders have the responsibility to help to communicate this, but one key function of the Bill is to provide a clear line between what the UK Government are responsible for and what the Welsh Government are responsible for, so that anyone living or working in Wales clearly knows not only who to give credit to when policies are going right, but who to hold responsible where policies or the impacts of policies are not as effective as the policymakers might have thought at the outset.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the other reasons why clarity is so important is so that we have far fewer examples of the Welsh Government and UK Government ending up arguing about things in the Supreme Court? Would clarity not assist in reducing that?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that, and this is the function of many of the clauses and much of the motivation behind them.

The Bill also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving further powers to the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers. To complement the Assembly’s existing powers over economic development, the Bill devolves responsibility for ports in Wales. That will enable the Welsh Government to consider the development of ports in Wales as part of their wider strategies for economic development, transport and tourism. Major trust ports will remain reserved, given their national, UK-wide significance. That means Milford Haven, given its importance to the energy security of the whole of the UK, will remain reserved. We are also devolving consenting responsibility for all energy projects in Wales up to 350 MW, aside from onshore wind projects which are being devolved through the Energy Act 2016.

The Bill also streamlines the consenting regime for energy projects, providing a one-stop shop for developers by aligning associated consents with the consents for the main project. When the Welsh Government make a decision on a new energy project, they will also be responsible for consenting to the new substations, access roads and overhead power lines relating to that project.

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[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

It is said that devolution is a process, not an event, a journey rather than a destination, and that is certainly true when it comes to the Bill. The journey has taken longer than it should have done, because in the draft Wales Bill the immediate predecessor of the Secretary of State seemed determined to drive us along a tortuous and convoluted path, going back the way we had come. That was in spite of an extraordinarily united chorus of navigators—everyone from Cymdeithas yr laith to the Conservative group in the Assembly—telling him to turn round the other way. It was quite an achievement to unite everyone against that Bill. Mind you, the Bill was so bad that it would have made the Assembly’s job impossible, and it would definitely have taken Welsh devolution backwards, not forwards. I am glad, however, that the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) eventually listened, put the brakes on, and prepared to change direction. We now have a piece of legislation that, while not perfect, is definitely a marked improvement.

I suppose like any lost driver, the right hon. Gentleman could be forgiven for hurling some irrational abuse at those of us trying to offer navigational advice. In February, he told us in no uncertain terms that we were launching some kind of separatist plot, that we had

“given up on the union”

and that all our criticism was actually a bid for Welsh independence. I hope that we can have a more sensible and measured debate today.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

My hon. Friend will remember from the Welsh Grand Committee debate on 3 February that the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) said:

“There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes the Welsh Assembly consider whether legislating in a devolved area is necessary.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 3 February 2016; c. 61.]

Is my hon. Friend as pleased as me that finally the then Secretary of State realised what was in his own Bill?

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed, it was laughable at times when the former Secretary of State noticed things to which we assumed he had already given his approval.

I want to make it clear at the outset that we welcome the reserved powers model, for which we have been calling for some time, as we feel that it has the potential to clarify the devolution settlement, and we welcome each of the new powers contained in the Bill. As the party that established the Welsh Assembly, we want to see our devolution settlement strengthened, with more powers devolved from Westminster to Wales. We are glad that the Assembly will have new powers over transport, energy and elections. As with the areas it already controls, the Assembly will be able to use those new powers to make different choices that reflect the will of people in Wales.

The powers over shale gas extraction will allow the Assembly to take into account the very real fears that people in Wales have about fracking. Labour has made it clear that, as the necessary safeguards cannot yet be met, we should not push ahead with fracking. We welcome the powers over energy planning consents for projects generating up to 350 MW, but we would certainly like full powers over grid connections devolved to Welsh Government. I hope that that is what we will hear from the Secretary of State.

That would not solve the delays with the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, which are due to the failure by Conservative Ministers to agree a viable financial framework for investors to proceed. I very much hope that the Secretary of State does everything he can to speed up the review, so that we can have a world first in Wales, with all the positive spin-offs for our manufacturing industry, rather than letting other countries steal a march on us.

The power to change the name of the Assembly means that we could call it a Welsh Parliament. Responsibility for the voting age in Welsh elections means that the Assembly could introduce votes at 16 for elections to the Assembly and to local councils. Whatever the Assembly decides, what matters is that those decisions will be taken in Wales by elected Assembly Members.

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[Chris Davies]

My hon. Friend makes an absolutely valid point. My theme is the centralisation of government in Cardiff Bay. That is not devolution to the people of Wales. Sadly, devolving further powers at this time, when that Government are not capable of handling the powers they have, is a bad way forward.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I will just say in relation to the intervention by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) that the last time I went along to Torfaen’s planning committee it seemed to have some planning powers. To return to the point, the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) is attacking the Welsh Labour Government. Will he show some respect to the people of Wales, who on five occasions have elected Labour as the largest party in the Assembly?

[Chris Davies]

The hon. Gentleman said the important thing, which was not said by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen): the people of Wales have elected the largest party, not a majority party. That party has achieved government by a coalition—is it a coalition; is it a merger? I am not quite sure what it is down there at the moment. They do not seem to know down there either, so is now the time to pass on more powers?

There we have it. I have asked only for a devolution settlement that allows Wales to decide its own destiny and future and to play its part in the United Kingdom, and that is built on the firmest foundations of accountability and democracy. Let us give Wales desired devolution, not disappointment, and a settlement, not a setback. Most of all, let us give real democracy to Wales.

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[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) as another member of the 2015 generation.

I welcome the Wales Bill in its new form, which is a significant improvement on its first incarnation last October. There is still work to do, but I am reassured that the Secretary of State has made it clear that he will continue to have constructive discussions on the Bill with the Welsh Government, and there is still scope to amend the Bill during its passage through the House. I welcome the additional powers on elections, energy, transport and marine licensing. The Bill represents a further stage on the devolution journey that began under a Labour Government in 1999.

In the Welsh Grand Committee on 3 February, I highlighted three concerns about the Bill regarding ministerial consents, reservations and the necessity tests. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State, the then Secretary of State said:

“There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes the Welsh Assembly consider whether legislating in a devolved area is necessary.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 3 February 2016; c. 61.]

I am pleased that there has been a rapid move from denial to acceptance, and that changes have been made in that regard.

The necessity tests have not been scrapped completely, and they remain in the Bill, admittedly in a watered-down form, in clause 3 and new schedule 7B. They apply, first, if Welsh legislation touches on reserved matters and, secondly, if there is an effect beyond Wales. My hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State made it clear that there may be scope to remove that altogether, and that may be something that the Secretary of State will consider during the passage of the Bill. Simpler ministerial consents are welcome. It is entirely right that the Welsh Government have the power to remove or modify UK ministerial powers in devolved areas without consent, and the shortened list of reservations is welcome too.

I spent some time teaching politics before entering the House and I remember many debates 10 to 12 years ago about pre-legislative scrutiny. Such scrutiny has been helpful for the Bill, and I pay tribute to the work of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in the Assembly, as well as to my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State, particularly for the speech that she made in the Welsh Grand Committee in February.

I want to deal with the issue of jurisdiction. I should refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and declare that I am a non-practising barrister, following my door tenancy at Civitas Law in Cardiff. There is an emerging body of Welsh law, which is a reality, and it will grow in years to come as a consequence of the primary powers devolved in the 2011 referendum. I am pleased that that has been explicitly recognised in the Bill, and I welcome the working group to which the Secretary of State has referred. As I understand it, the group can take in representatives from the Wales Office, the Ministry of Justice, the Welsh Government and, indeed, the Lord Chief Justice, all of whom should be able to contribute.

The power to modify criminal and private law on matters in the competence of the Assembly is welcome too, along with clause 10 and judicial impact assessments. However, a steer on a distinct jurisdiction would be extremely useful, and was proposed by the Welsh Government in supplementary pre-legislative scrutiny evidence. That would assist in the longer term—we all want a lasting settlement, not one that is revisited. I do not, however, think that a separate legal jurisdiction is the answer to the problem. I approach this from the perspective of access to justice. I have been critical of the Government in other contexts and their record on access to justice, but that issue has to be borne in mind in the Bill.

At present, if someone wishes to take a legal action on something outside the jurisdiction, within the civil procedure rules—sadly, I can remember these things; this is covered in part 6—a number of requirements have to be met in order to do so. I do not want a constituent from Torfaen, who goes, for example, to Bristol, falls over or has an accident, and then wants justice in that matter to find that there are barriers in the way of securing that. As the working group goes forward, it must look at the access to justice issue and ensure that we have a pragmatic way forward—the kind of vision of devolution set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—so that individual access to justice is at the heart of the matter. It would also be useful to have far fewer clashes in the Supreme Court. I hope that as we proceed, the Bill will be able to achieve that.

On the devolution of income tax, I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), the shadow Secretary of State: it must be on the basis of no detriment to the current funding settlement for the Welsh Government.

My vision of the Bill is the vision of one of my hon. Friend’s predecessors as Member of Parliament for Llanelli, James Griffiths, whom I regard as one of the most underrated politicians of the previous century, particularly for his work as Minister for National Insurance after the second world war. He was the very first Secretary of State for Wales, appointed by a Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, in 1964, and his vision was of strong devolution for Wales within a strong United Kingdom. That is precisely the vision that I have today, and I sincerely hope that we can achieve that by building on the Bill and passing it.