Out of Town Supermarkets

Nick Boles Excerpts

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in this important debate, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) on securing it, on a subject that is obviously and evidently of great personal interest to him.

You will understand, Mr Hollobone, my anguish and dismay at having to admit that I do not agree with much of what my hon. Friend said. Coalition is strange and curious and I suspect that many of us—not least, I suspect, my hon. Friend—have at times found it trying, but it works best when we admit to some differences in starting points while nevertheless hopefully being able to reach consensus on how to move forward. It is with what I believe is my hon. Friend’s starting point that I am in greatest disagreement.

I am firmly of the view that supermarkets have been a powerful force for social and economic good in this country for the past 50 years. I am firmly of the view that people on modest incomes around the country, in his constituency of Southport and in mine of Grantham and Stamford, have the opportunity to buy a range of quality food and other items that were unaffordable or unavailable to all but the very rich when I was growing up, and probably when my hon. Friend was growing up.

[John Pugh]

I think the supermarkets, like coal mines, have been extraordinarily good for the country as a whole and an excellent development. My argument is not for or against supermarkets, but about their placing in a commercial environment. Just as a coal mine is a good thing, one does not necessarily want one nearby. A supermarket may be an excellent thing, but one wants it in the centre of town.

[Nick Boles]

I wish I could accept that that is what my hon. Friend was saying. He accused supermarkets of behaving like the mafia, and talked of them bribing and threatening. When he said supermarkets may do good, he then mentioned recycling as if the provision of high-quality, low-cost products to people on low incomes is not in itself a good thing, and employing thousands of people on flexible time scales that fit in with family life is not a good thing. I profoundly disagree with that characterisation of supermarkets.

Nevertheless, I am in agreement with my hon. Friend, as is Government policy, that it is important to find a way to encourage and promote development of new supermarkets to fulfil a vital and much appreciated need and the equally strong desire to preserve the range, vitality and diversity of retail uses in thriving town centres. That is the difficult balance that Government policy, as he observed, throughout the last Government and the present one—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

We all got back rather more quickly than I thought, so I will ask the Minister to resume his remarks.

[Nick Boles]

Mr Hollobone, I feel that the Almighty perhaps felt that I was becoming a little too intemperate in my comments. I am sure that coalition harmony will now break out and that we can work out where we agree.

Although my hon. Friend the Member for Southport and I seem to have a different general attitude to the role that supermarkets have played in our society, we do not, nevertheless, disagree on other things, not least because I represent the three market towns of Grantham, Stamford and Bourne, which face similar challenges in their town centres. I want to make sure that independent retailers in their town centres can thrive, that new ventures can come in, set up and be successful, and that we do not end up with hollowed-out town centres, with thriving supermarkets outside.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for acknowledging that the “town centre first” policy is a long-standing one. I believe the previous Conservative Government brought it in towards the end of their time in office, and the Labour Government maintained it through their long period in office. It is maintained in the national planning policy framework, having simply been translated from the much greater bulk of previous planning policies, but with no dilution of its content—certainly in terms of policy intent, words or their legal import.

My hon. Friend suggests that, despite the inclusion of the “town centre first” policy, the sequential test and the requirement for an impact assessment on any proposed out of town development, more such developments seem to get through first, than is intended by the Government under the policy, and secondly, than was the case before. That is an interesting claim, and he referred to the report commissioned by the Association of Convenience Stores. He is right to acknowledge that the association—this is entirely proper—is a lobby group that represents its members and that commissions and publishes reports that advance their cause, but he is also right to say that it has taken the trouble to see what has in fact happened.

It is a reasonable challenge to the Government to look closely at that report and to ask ourselves whether it looks in a complete way at all the evidence. In addition, does it judge what the counterfactual would be? I say that because, without wanting to comment on the proposal that has been made in my hon. Friend’s town or on any other particular proposal, I can imagine that, in the teeth of a deep and long recession, planning authorities may well have been more swayed by arguments highlighting the number of jobs created by new supermarket developments than they might have been inclined to be during the boom times towards the middle and end of the last decade or, indeed, before. It is entirely proper for planning authorities to weigh up the relative worth of very different impacts, but that balance of judgment may shift back as, hopefully, the economy continues to improve and conditions within the retail sector gradually improve.

Although I accept my hon. Friend’s point on the level of vacancies in his town centre, it is not bad compared with some other places. I have high vacancies in one of my town centres, in Grantham, but in the past few months the figure has fallen significantly. All the landlords of small retail units in my town centres are saying that things have been picking up in the past few months, so I hope that is a sign that things are beginning to return, which may shift the balance of thinking in local authorities.

[Simon Danczuk]

rose—

[Nick Boles]

I am, of course, very happy to give way to a member of the Select Committee who owns an important local convenience shop.

[Simon Danczuk]

I declare my interest. I get the impression that the Minister agrees that approvals for out of town supermarkets appear to be accelerating, but does he not share my concern that approvals are being given but supermarkets are not necessarily being built? That is leaving some town centres in limbo because developers will not go in after approvals have been granted.

[Nick Boles]

No one is wilier than the hon. Gentleman at putting words in my mouth that I did not say. For the record, I make it clear that I do not accept that the rate of approvals for out of town developments has gone up. We will look at the evidence that has been presented, and he is perfectly right to suggest that we should draw our own conclusions. I was not aware of the problem to which he refers, but we would all be interested to look at any evidence he has—systematic evidence, rather than episodic cases.

The three parties represented in this debate agree on the “town centre first” policy, and we all agree it is important that the sequential test is properly done and maintained, and that planning authorities should feel confident in making decisions on particular applications in accordance with what the sequential test and the impact assessment tell them about the effect of a potential out of town development on the vitality of a town centre. We hope and believe that planning authorities will have that confidence in the future.

I offer a small olive branch to my hon. Friend the Member for Southport by saying that I would be delighted to find out from the Minister in the responsible Department what is holding up the response to Southport’s businesses improvement district application and do anything I can to urge a swifter response than has been received to date.

[John Pugh]

I thank the Minister. I assure him that, despite my forensic character of expression from time to time, there is little that divides us on the main principle.

[Nick Boles]

On that note, I have nothing further to add. Coalition harmony has broken out once again.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Thank you very much to all those who took part in that important debate for Southport.