Arms Exports and Arms Control

Debate between Nia Griffith and Bob Stewart

Thursday 21st November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I rise to speak in this extremely important debate. I thank the Committees on Arms Export Controls for their excellent work in producing the report. In particular, I thank the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), the Chair of the Committees, not only for the work that he has done, but for his explanation of the report today.

In many respects, the response of the Government answers a fair number of the Committees’ queries, problems, questions and recommendations. Today, therefore, I will speak about the areas in which I feel that the Government did not answer the concerns expressed, or did not answer adequately. That does not detract from the areas in which there has been a helpful response from the Government.

It is extremely worrying that in spite of the good work done to date we still have a situation in which there are some 3,000 extant licences and some £12 billion of goods—and that is only the countables, not the uncountables—going to countries with a poor track record on human rights. There is a mismatch between the Foreign Office’s list of such countries and what is happening with arms exports on the ground. The situation is concerning, so we should continue to look at the issue and not simply let it die a death.

I pay tribute to all those on both sides of the House who have helped to bring the arms trade treaty into being this year. That was a tremendous achievement. Although that is extremely good news and the UK can be extremely proud of its work to date on the treaty, we now need to work proactively to ensure that it is ratified. It does not come into force until 90 days after the 50th country has ratified it, and to date only eight countries have done so. We know that there are certain issues with regard to the EU that are shortly to be resolved, which will enable a lot more countries to ratify the treaty, but I would stress that the UK needs to use every opportunity to push ratification with other countries. We might also need to offer financial and legal help to those countries that need that sort of support to ratify the treaty, so that we can see the treaty fully up and running in a year’s time. Perhaps the Minister could take that message back to colleagues in the Foreign Office.

Here in the UK we need a strong, clear explanation of how the UK intends to apply the criteria in articles 6 and 7 of the treaty. It is most important that we state that the UK will deny any export licences where there is a significant risk that the goods in question will contribute to breaches of international humanitarian and human rights law. Now we have the instrument of the arms trade treaty it is important that we have the strongest possible interpretive statement and description of what it means to the UK, so that it can be as effective as possible. It is important not only that we do that but, as it is a treaty, that we encourage other countries to do likewise, to make the most of the opportunity the treaty brings.

I turn now to the issue of brass-plate companies. The Committees say in their report that the Government have not taken any action against brass-plate companies involved in arms exporting and arms brokering. Those companies have the benefit of UK company registration but export arms and carry out arms-brokering activities overseas in contravention of UK Government policies. I feel that the Government’s response is a little vague and that this area needs significantly more attention. The Government speak of using existing export control legislation in certain circumstances and of using other legislation to discontinue the UK registration of such companies, but stress that they need to have the necessary evidence. I believe that we need a concerted strategy. Will the Minister tell us what measures he could take to develop a strategy to pursue those companies more rigorously? It is quite clear that they are used as an avoidance mechanism. Such companies want the brass plate along with the good name that it brings, but have ways of avoiding UK legislation.

[Bob Stewart]

I have some sympathy for the Government on that point. If these brass-plate companies want to do bad, they use their subsidiary company in another jurisdiction. That means they are cut off from our oversight of what UK companies are doing. I think this issue will be extremely difficult to crack.

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman puts the matter very well. The problem is the devious nature of such arrangements. That is why I am suggesting that the Minister could look into ways of developing a strategy, closing loopholes and collecting evidence—possibly in conjunction with other countries—in order to get the necessary detail and put the measures that are needed in place to enable us to discontinue the UK registration of such companies. I am not saying that the problem is easy to solve, by any manner of means—I accept the point being made—but it is something that we need to be looking at, to try to work out how we could bring more pressure to bear.

I want to discuss Syria briefly. Many of my constituents contacted me about Syria over the summer. They had a particular concern: if we were to go into Syria and support the opposition there, who exactly would we be supporting? It is worrying that a gate has been opened that basically allows EU countries to export arms to the opposition in Syria. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) pointed out, Croatia has taken advantage of that situation.

It seems to me that people in this country really want the Government to crack down on that loophole, because they do not want to see arms going to rebel forces when we do not know who they are or which groups they consist of. Given that we are very concerned about what both the Government parties and some of the opposition groups in Syria are doing, the position seems quite straightforward to me: we should close the loophole and reinstate the full EU arms embargo on Syria that existed prior to May 2013. That would not mean that we were turning our backs on the people there—there is a huge amount to be done for the refugees and we also need to see a lot of negotiation—but the embargo needs to be reinstated as soon as possible.

I turn now to Egypt, which of course has had a tumultuous time over the past couple of years, swinging one way and then the other. Many of us have been contacted by Christians in Egypt, who also fear for their safety. The situation, again, is that we need to re-examine exactly which arms are being transferred to Egypt, who the end users are, to what use those arms are being put and what licences there are for Egypt. I ask the Minister to re-examine those matters, and to look again at trying to set out a clear strategy to ensure that those items are not misused or diverted. We want to know exactly what the UK policy is for arms exports to Egypt, because the situation there is extremely volatile.

I will briefly mention the situation in Colombia. There are still £20 million of extant UK licences there. Members will be aware of well-documented violations of the human rights of trade union activists in Colombia. There are worrying reports—I have heard accounts of this myself from Colombian lawyers—about the army’s track record towards indigenous peoples. There are serious concerns not only about how the Colombian Government treat activists who speak up for indigenous peoples but about the behaviour of the armed forces, particularly in areas where indigenous people are being moved off the land, often to enable mining activities. Moreover, concerning evidence is now emerging that multinational companies are contributing to the funding of those armed forces. Once more, I would ask the Government to look again at what we are doing about arms exports to Colombia.

In conclusion, I wish simply to say that this issue will not go away. I ask the Committees to continue their excellent work and continue to be vigilant. The issue is one that every single one of us needs to know about, and the report is extremely valuable.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Nia Griffith and Bob Stewart

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I rise to say a few of the things I was unable to say just before the recess because my speech was limited to about three minutes. I shall make up for it this evening.

It is important to put the Budget in context. No Budget can be considered without the context in which it is to be carried out. My major concern is that it does not address the problems we are facing. Of course, we have a deficit and we need to reduce it, but we can do that only if we make money, and there seems to be no strategy to get the economy going. The Government do not even seem to know where to feed money into the economy, and seem to be wasting money by giving it away in the wrong places and not using it to do things that would stimulate the economy.

Let us look at what has happened to date. Since the emergency Budget of 2010, and subsequent measures, the Government have already planned to take a huge amount out of the economy, much of it from people on low or modest incomes—the very people who by necessity have immediate spending on the essentials of life simply to keep their families fed and warm. What seems to have happened in the Budget is that we are seeing money given away to those at the top end of the scale, and there is no guarantee at all about what they will do with their money. They could choose to do all manner of things with it and it may never come back into our economy. The money may go abroad or be stashed away somewhere, but it will not immediately feed back into the economy. The Budget proposals present a serious problem from an economic and a fairness point of view.

[Bob Stewart]

Does the hon. Lady agree that, from the point of view of fairness, it is a really good thing to increase the tax threshold for those people who pay little tax? That was well done in this Budget, and it will be better next year. Surely that will help the lowest-paid in our society.

[Nia Griffith]

The difficulty with raising the personal tax allowance is, first, that those on very low incomes—those who will have their disability living allowance or housing benefit cut—do not even pay tax. Secondly, those much higher up the scale will benefit from the increased personal allowance. It is often dual-income families, quite high up the scale, who benefit from the personal allowance being pushed up. It is a very expensive way of helping people who are in the position that the hon. Gentleman sets out.

Although people criticised the tax credit system, the whole point of it was that it maximised the amount of benefit that went to the people who really needed it. The irony is that when we were in government, we were often accused of introducing stealth taxes, but look at the amount of indirect taxation now. What people have supposedly been given back through the direct taxation system—that is, through their personal allowance—has already been taken off them through the 20% VAT rate. That is the type of “stealth tax”—the same goes for fuel and so forth—that people resent. They are actually saying that they are paying more tax than before. Even the increased personal allowance will not make up the difference.

The Government propose making a very expensive move that is not properly targeted, and that is worrying, because the money will not feed back into the economy as quickly as it would if it were targeted at those who really need it and would want to spend it straight away. The first problem is that the money is going to the wrong place.

Secondly, we seem to have no growth strategy at all. We are lucky that some of our manufacturers are able to export because they are selling to markets in countries where there are stimulus packages, or strategies to stimulate growth. The fact remains that if we were relying solely on the home market, our manufacturing would be in a dire condition.

With growth flatlining and unemployment rising, the Government, far from bringing the deficit down, are facing the fact that they will have to borrow an additional £150 billion simply to pay people who are out of work. What is the point of that, when we could be paying them to do constructive things such as build council houses or schools? Through employment in manufacturing, they could be learning skills that they could use later. That would keep the skills base going. One of the big problems when there is mass unemployment and a massive drop in the number of people in an industry, whether it is coal mining or building, is that we lose a generation of skills.

People do not want to sit about doing nothing. The overwhelming majority of people whom I meet who cannot find a job are very frustrated at not being able to find work. They are looking for anything and everything. It is often older workers in their 50s and early 60s who particularly suffer. They feel that time and again, they turn up for an interview only to be told that they are too old and cannot be taken on. We want the opportunity for all people—young and old—to get back to work.

Let me give an example of the type of money being taken out of the economy, so that we can see the real problem. In Wales alone, some £6.3 billion will be taken out of the economy over the next three years. We are talking about a very small population of not even 3 million people. The money is coming directly out of the Welsh economy. It is coming from the VAT increase, the loss of jobs in the public sector, and, significantly, most of all, from cuts to the tax credit system and to a wide range of allowances, including the disability living allowance, housing benefit, and council tax benefit. It is coming from a whole range of moneys that were put in to help people who struggle to pay particular bills—people who really could not make ends meet without the money.

As was mentioned, many of the people affected by the housing benefit changes will either find themselves homeless or simply have to use money that they would normally use for food and heating to pay the rent.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Debate between Nia Griffith and Bob Stewart

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

Absolutely. It is a purely selfish idea that anybody would want to see an animal perform in a circus. As my hon. Friend says, we have moved on from that. It is completely mediaeval to think of going back to the idea that an animal is to be taken round on a chain because nobody in the area or in the country has ever had a chance to see that type of animal. We do not want that any more.

There are many important lessons that we want to teach our young people. They will not learn the fundamental lesson about respect for animals and treating them properly and well if they are taken to a circus to see such antics. Young people have to understand that for them to see such things, animals have to travel and undergo very undesirable practices. Animal welfare is incompatible with the life of a travelling circus.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have personal experience of a wild animal. I found a bear in a cage in no man’s land. He had been left there for four weeks without water. He was entirely miserable and would not even be coaxed out of his cage by honey. We managed to ethnically cleanse that bear out of Bosnia and into Croatia. He is now a very happy bear who is full of life and living in Amsterdam zoo, which is great. I fully support the idea of banning animals in cages, because it would stop that sort of thing.

[Nia Griffith]

As I have said, society has moved on. We do not expect to see the cruelty of animals being kept in circuses in this day and age.

We want this ban to be sorted out in the most efficient way for the whole country, not in little bits and pieces or through half measures. We want a proper ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. As I have said, there are many other ways in which young people can be educated about animals. They do not need to see cruelty to animals in the circus. I fully support the motion. I congratulate the Members who called for this debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it.