Post Office Card Account

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on making an excellent opening speech. She outlined the history of the Post Office card account very clearly, but she also showed that she is way ahead of many other hon. Members in thinking about 2015 and the fact that in order to secure the future of post offices any incoming sub-postmaster will immediately ask, “What will be my income in five or 10 years from now?” They see no hope of any inter-business agreement coming through, as a result of the privatisation of the Royal Mail; very disappointingly, such an agreement has not been enshrined in legislation. Consequently, they will ask, “Well, what of the promise that the post office will be the shop front for Government business? What is going to come of that promise?” So it is very timely that the hon. Lady has secured this debate today.

Labour first introduced POCA as a measure to boost financial inclusion. It was designed to give people who had perhaps always dealt in cash an opportunity to collect their pensions or benefits from their local post office. Indeed, by 2008 4.5 million people had a POCA, of whom 30% had no other bank account. Obviously, therefore, the future of POCA is vital for that particular sector of the population.

Those of us who were here in the last Parliament will remember the box-loads of cards that came in begging us to lobby to keep POCA and to have it extended beyond the finishing date of its first phase, which was 2010. Obviously that renewal of POCA was made by the last Government. They put in place the present arrangements, which will run until 2015. Now we need to look towards 2015 and consider what will happen next.

As has been pointed out, the Royal Mail Group used to earn about £195 million annually from POCA. That figure has now dropped to about £135 million annually, but the income from POCA is still a very significant source of income for post offices. Furthermore, it is not necessarily very evenly spread and therefore some post offices will be disproportionately hit if a lot of Government business is withdrawn from the network.

POCA is important for consumers because it was part of the last Government’s financial inclusion plan. It exists so that customers can obtain their benefits or pensions if they cannot use or do not wish to use any other kind of banking account. It allowed account holders or a nominated helper to withdraw cash free of charge at any post office branch using a plastic card that could not be used for other purposes. It also meant that the problem of people getting into debt, and all the difficulties associated with some types of account, were avoided. The important thing now is to say, “Where do we go next?”

In its 2010 manifesto, the Labour party made a clear commitment to a people’s bank with a full range of competitive, affordable products, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) mentioned that there was a commitment in the coalition agreement not only to an enhanced Post Office card account but to a people’s bank. The Minister himself stood on that manifesto for a people’s bank, so what is happening about it? Why have we not yet seen any steps towards creating any sort of additional banking services in the Post Office? I hope that the Minister today is able to tell us something about the plans, because at the moment it looks very much as if that coalition promise has been broken. There is no plan for any form of people’s bank at the Post Office, and we do not yet know what sort of enhanced services the Post Office card account will have—perhaps the Minister will enlighten us.

[Richard Graham]

The hon. Lady glosses over a bit of the history of the Post Office card account. My memory is pretty clear that in 2007 the account was put out to tender and that by the beginning of 2008 it was clear that the tender would not be given to the Post Office. The previous Government changed direction only in November of that year, after an enormous campaign that showed the unpopularity of the suggestion.

The hon. Lady is right that in March—I think—of last year, the Government started to recommend that the Post Office card account be extended to cover other financial services, and that her own party’s manifesto included more of the same, but that does raise the question of why, after 13 years in government, her party took so long to arrive at some proposals for extending the account. It would be fair to say—I hope that she agrees—that this Government have made substantially increased commitments. The question, however, which she rightly raised, is how we will take forward those commitments to using post offices as the front office for more Government work.

[Nia Griffith]

It was indeed decisive action by the Labour Government in late 2008 that ensured that the contract went to the Post Office. My question here, however, would be, “What has happened to the green giro?”

I refer the hon. Gentleman back to the letter, with which I am sure the Minister is familiar, that George Thomson wrote to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in September. It contained a list of ways in which he thought further Government business could be put the way of the Post Office, including, among other ideas, assisted applications for all benefits, assisted benefit withdrawals, signing on, payment in cash and various housing benefit validations. He obviously wanted to discuss in detail with Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions his ideas about the Post Office becoming a front office for DWP business—the DWP is probably the Department that would most use the Post Office. Instead, however, what do we find? We see the green giro awarded elsewhere, and that is a very significant blow for the Post Office.

[Mr Reid]

Yes, it is a blow to the Post Office, but the hon. Lady must recognise the part that her Government played. It was that Government who put out the contract and wrote the specification, and if it had specified a widespread rural network, the Post Office would have won the contract.

[Nia Griffith]

What we want to know now is what the Government will do about securing more Government business for the post office network. It is absolutely clear that unless there is more business, the worrying situation of hundreds of post offices being temporarily closed—for months, or two or three years—will continue. Post offices are closing because it is extremely difficult to identify people who want to take on a sub-post office. They want to see guaranteed income, but instead they see much less security in what they will get from Royal Mail in the future, both because of the drop in the volume of postal items and because there is no guarantee in the Bill currently going through Parliament of any definite business from Royal Mail for the post office network after privatisation.

[Richard Graham]

The hon. Lady is, of course, absolutely right that the risk at the moment is different from what it was. The risk under the previous Government—the reality, in fact, not the risk—was the Government-led closure of some 8,000 post offices across the country. The risk today is that the network of 11,500 post offices that remain after the Labour closures programme could be weakened—she is quite right about that—if sub-postmasters either retired and no one took over or if they decided that the business was so unprofitable that they had to give it up, again with no one prepared to take over. I must point out, however, that that risk is a very different one.

In Kingsholm in my constituency of Gloucester, a profitable post office was closed. The sub-postmaster was one month short of having served 25 years and wanted to continue in the job, but my predecessor as MP and his Government closed the post office. Under this Government, a post office closed in Quedgeley when the sub-postmaster decided to give it up, but after a while a new sub-postmaster was found and a new post office opened, with the support of Post Office Ltd and the Government. The hon. Lady is right that there is a risk, but it is not the same, and it is much smaller.

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman conveniently forgets that although about 8,000 post offices probably met the previous Labour Government’s access criteria we kept 11,500 open, and put in a £150 million subsidy each year to do so. He was very lucky that a new sub-postmaster was found for Quedgeley, but in my constituency, and those of many Members, post offices have remained closed for much longer, and the real difficulty will be in enticing people to take on the businesses if they cannot see a viable future in them. I am so grateful to the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth for securing the debate today, because the Post Office card account will be a key part of that viability.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

I was absolutely delighted this week to receive a letter from the Post Office saying that it is reopening a post office in Port Clarence, a community in my constituency. That has been made possible by the local authority, voluntary organisations and the local community working together. Is there not that wider responsibility on a whole community, even though the Government also need to be in there to ensure that things happen?

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed. It is very much a partnership, and where that can happen, all to the better, but a key part of that partnership is the Government business, which is what we are talking about today.

I hope that the Minister is able to shed some light on what the Government mean by Government front office. What is the additional business that they hope to give to the post offices? What is the enhancement of the Post Office card account that they can offer at this stage, and what is the future for the account after 2015? Without that security and that business coming into the post offices, it is very difficult to see how we will encourage new entrants to take on post offices, particularly in areas where there is little opportunity to do much else in the post office, because they are very small, for example. Sometimes there is little else in the village that would offer people the opportunity to get enough money just to pay the milkman or the fish van that comes round. I have constituents who cannot get the cash they need for very small, simple, everyday transactions without a local post office. It is absolutely vital, therefore, for the future of the Post Office that we get that Government business, and I hope that we will hear how the DWP will contribute to that and, in particular, what its views are and its plans for the future of the Post Office card account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

Before the hon. Gentleman seeks to intervene, I should say that, when I said the United Kingdom, I thought that I was including Northern Ireland.

There are a lot of common threads. Any community-minded constituency MP will echo much of what has been said this morning. My own constituency is a mixture of market towns and villages, most of which, notwithstanding the series of cuts over the past year, either have sub-post offices or, in some instances, have reopened them as community ventures—community shops, co-operatives and so on. I think that we all share that commitment to the post office network.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) is absolutely right to say that, although money is tight, the Government should prioritise spending on the post office network. I encourage him to think about which Government Department identified £1.34 billion for the post office network, and about the other spending issues that that Department faced that raised some political issues. He will recall that there were other calls on the Department’s money, yet it prioritised the post office network, because we are about not just words, but deeds in relation to that. To be clear, in return for that £1.34 billion, Post Office Ltd must maintain a network of at least 11,500 branches and continue to adhere to the strict access criteria that mean that 99% of the population live within three miles of a post office.

[Nia Griffith]

Does the Minister agree that, under the previous Labour Government, it was £150 million per year and that that went up to £180 million per year in the last year in which we were responsible for setting the subsidy? That is half of what the present Government are giving to the post office network, and it was sufficient to keep open those 11,500 post offices. Why on earth has such a large amount of money been given to the Post Office when it would be far better to create the streams of business that make post offices viable and sustainable for good, so that they do not need that type of subsidy? I find it very difficult to understand why doubling the subsidy is the best way forward when making things viable would really be the best way forward.

[Steve Webb]

I could not have written that question better myself. Why is it necessary to double the subsidy to keep the post office network going on a viable basis? Because so little was done over the past 13 years to make the post office network sustainable. That is precisely why we have had to put temporary subsidy in while we get the Post Office back on its feet.

I shall quote from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills document, “Securing the Post Office Network in the Digital Age.” On the very point that the hon. Lady raises, it states:

“Senior management at Post Office Ltd… estimate that without action and modernisation”—

how much of that happened?—

“keeping the network operating at its current size would result in the annual subsidy required from taxpayers rising from £150 million this year to £400 million by 2016—and would carry on climbing.”

That is the legacy. That is what would have happened had we done nothing. I sense, Mr Hollobone, that you are not a great PowerPoint fan, but it is at such moments I wish we could have a screen and slides because I would simply refer hon. Members to chart 3 of that document.

I will point that document in the direction of Opposition Members because it shows that the long-term gradual decline in the post office network is partly because of demographic trends—sub-postmasters retiring and not being replaced—and partly because, during the 13 years of a Labour Government, the number of post offices has fallen off a cliff. During the two closure programmes between 2003 and 2009, 5,000 branches were closed. People have stood in this place and in this Chamber for the past 13 years pleading loyalty to the post office network, yet those were the people who carried out two massive closure programmes.

[Nia Griffith]

Does the Minister not agree that the fundamental reason for the Post Office’s loss of business is the complete revolution in how we correspond with each other? Personal letters were of immense importance 20 years ago, but the growth of the internet and so on is clearly the main factor in the reduction in the amount of mail business going through post offices. That is the be-all and end-all and the real reason for the existence of many post offices, in addition to what Government business they can do.

[Steve Webb]

The reasons for the decline of the post office network are many and varied. When I go to my local village post office, I am told that eBay is keeping it going. The fact that people buy postage for parcels and so on brings a whole range of different customers into the post office network. One of the biggest trends, which was accelerated by the previous Government through direct payments, was people being paid via their bank accounts, rather than by traditional giros at post offices. That was one of the single biggest changes that accelerated the demise of the post office network. Opposition Members ought to take just a tiny bit of responsibility for the trends that we have seen.

On the Post Office card account specifically, the perspective of POCA users has been missing from the debate. The Post Office has recently published some startling research that it undertook on what POCA holders wanted from the account. The Post Office talked to 930 people and asked the following about the POCA:

“is there anything you would change about it, for instance any additional services you would like it to provide?”

Some 80% of respondents said “nothing.” I will return to that significant point. Some 80% of respondents did not want any changes to the account and they valued POCA for its particular characteristics, which we should think carefully about changing. The next most popular answer to that question had a 4% response rate. I shall read down the list of things people would change about POCA, which have a response rate of between 4% to 2%:

“deposit/cash cheques into it; more cashpoints; use any ATM; comments relating to PO service in general; more flexible like a debit card; interest on account balance; online account access.”

Hon. Members will have noticed that direct debit is not on that list. Some of these issues are counter-intuitive. I will not say that I like nothing better than to go online to use my bank account—which, I should just add, I access at the post office—but the folk who use POCA value it for what it is. As a number of hon. Members have said, we need to ensure that the people who have POCAs can benefit from things such as direct debit. However, that may not imply sticking things on to POCA.

Why might it be a good thing to provide access to those services but not to do so through changing the POCA? It is striking that many hon. Members have said that 30% of people with a POCA do not have another bank account. However, I tend to think of it the other way around. Some 70% of people with a POCA have a bank account or some other sort of account. So why do they have two? If they have a bank account with direct debits and all the rest of it, why do they bother having a POCA? Because people like to budget in different ways and they like a simple account that cannot go overdrawn.

Some of the evidence on charges is startling and worth repeating. I have been known occasionally to go overdrawn without planning to and I am shocked when I see the charges. The evidence of what happens shows that most people do not simply face one charge in a year. Once things have gone wrong, the charge is debited. People are then more overdrawn, they perhaps do not notice it and so another charge goes on. Just to give a feel of the situation, in 2008, out of 12.6 million active bank accounts, about a quarter incurred at least one penalty charge and the average charge was £205. Of that 2008 sample, a quarter of people had one charge, 15% had two charges and 39% had at least six charges.

Hon. Members can start to see why such an overdraft facility—there might also be a situation where someone had a POCA that could not go overdrawn but a direct debit bounced and somebody somewhere had to pay a charge for that—is not necessarily what people are asking for. People do not want to pay more because they are on a low income, so we need to find ways of giving them access to the best prices. However, grafting the ability to use direct debit on to an account that people like because of its simplicity may not necessarily be the best answer.

I absolutely stand by our coalition agreement commitment. The coalition programme for Government includes a pledge to give POCA holders the chance to benefit from direct debit discounts, but that should not necessarily be done by grafting direct debit on to POCA. We have listened to what the account holders are saying to us and our impression is, yes, people want the best prices they can have, but not necessarily by taking a product they value and turning it into something else.

That brings me on to the point my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth made about the fully transactional account. One of the problems with the fully transactional POCA is that it would be so different from the product that was originally tendered, we would have to retender. The postcards will probably go to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), but I have a feeling we might be going through it all over again. The comment rightly made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) was that there is uncertainty about the future. There always is. If we said that we need a full transactional POCA, so we are going to retender for it, I suspect that there would be riots on the streets of Kilmarnock.

We do not want more disruption and uncertainty. What we want—and as a Government what we are trying to do—is to work in partnership with the Post Office far more. Rather than those involved with running post offices being people to whom we do something, they should be in here as people we do something with. That is a profoundly different approach. The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) talked about joined-up government and different Departments not damaging the Post Office. The Department that springs to mind is the Department for Transport. I renew my car tax each year at my village post office because, having talked to the sub-postmistress, I know it is one of the biggest transaction charges it gets. The Department for Transport would rather I did not do so. It sends me letters that say, “Do it online—you don’t have to go to your post office.” One year, it had a prize draw—or a raffle or lottery—in which I could win a free car.

The fact that Departments are not working in a co-ordinated way on the Post Office is not new. I work closely with the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton, and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The three of us have discussed financial inclusion issues, particularly credit unions. The post office network and credit unions could work together. There are exciting possibilities on that. One of the challenges is that, although credit unions are often very good and strong in a localised way, there are some very small credit unions and, in large parts of the country, if we asked someone on the high street where their nearest credit union is, they would not know what we were talking about. The potential for linking post offices and credit unions and access is very exciting, but it is also very expensive. That is the trade-off and the challenge.

We do not want credit union accounts with hefty charges because that would defeat the object of the exercise. We are wrestling with how to bring those two things together, but there are real opportunities for the post office network to build closer links with credit unions. In recent years, credit unions have made great progress in bringing affordable, financial services to people who would not otherwise be able to access them. I want credit unions, in partnership with the Post Office, to provide more services more efficiently to more people. That is what we want to see.

I was asked about the Post Office as the front office for Government. A number of Government Departments are looking at ways to do that, and I want to share briefly with the Chamber some measures that the DWP is taking. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) mentioned George Thomson at the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters, who wrote to the Secretary of State. I am delighted to say that, in response to that letter, the Secretary of State had a face-to-face meeting with George Thomson. Several points that she read out, and which were on his list, are now being piloted in Government.

For example, a pilot for document verification started last week. The Pension Service, for which I am responsible, is piloting a check-and-send style service. That is for applicants who claim state pension or pension credit, and who are required to submit additional documents in support of their claims, such as birth or marriage certificates. Many people do not like sending their marriage or birth certificate in the post, so why not go into a post office and let post office staff check the documents, as they do when people renew their car tax? Post office staff could say, “Yes, that is fine; I have seen it. I am authorised to say that.” That would be quicker, and would give the Post Office revenue and footfall—everybody would be happy. That is not a—I do not think the word “piddling” is parliamentary—little pilot. Some 106 post office branches in the north-east of England are involved—a big pilot. It started last week and will run for three months in the Seaham pension centre catchment area. It will include a mix of Crown branches in urban, urban deprived and rural locations.

That is one concrete example; let me give the Chamber another. Later this year, we will be looking at a national insurance number pilot, which will investigate whether applications from what we call low-risk groups—EU citizens in states that are already members of the EU, not including the accession countries—could be directed to the Post Office for the evidence-gathering interview to get a national insurance number. Although the Post Office currently carries out document checking for the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Identity and Passport Service, the DWP requires something qualitatively different. We are working closely with the Post Office to see if we can have an efficient but secure service, and hope to go live with the project later this year.

We want business in post offices, but we do not want dirty great queues. In other words, if I am queuing up to buy a stamp, I do not want someone in front of me trying to verify a national insurance number. We have to try to think of what post offices are good and efficient at, and harness that without disrupting the core business of the post office. That is why we are conducting these pilots.

The hon. Member for Llanelli mentioned signing on. In rural areas, getting to a jobcentre can be quite a trek, so why not sign on at the post office? At the moment, I was surprised to learn that customers in rural areas, intriguingly, sign on by post. The pilot will test whether there are benefits in requiring customers to attend and sign on in a local post office instead. We will evaluate that approach across a wide geographical spread and range of labour markets. We have identified test locations in Essex and in the highlands and islands—a range of areas.