Policing and Crime Bill

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 26th April 2016 Commons Chamber

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government new clause 32—Police volunteers: inspection.

Amendment 11, in clause 35, page 57, line 39, leave out subsection (1A).

This amendment removes the ability for volunteers to be given the powers of a Constable or Police and Community Support Officer.

Amendment 12, page 58, line 2, at end insert—

‘(2A) The chief officer of any police force may not place a volunteer in any role which requires the use of force or restraint.’.

This amendment would prevent volunteers being placed in roles which may require the use of force or restraint which should only be performed by officers and members of police staff.

Amendment 13, page 59, line 1, leave out subsection (9B).

This amendment removes the provision for volunteer PCSOs to be issued with CS spray and PAVA spray.

Amendment 10,  page 59, line 31, at end insert—

‘(12) This section cannot come into force until the House of Commons approves a report under subsection 46(6) of the Police Act 1996 which guarantees no annual reduction in funding in real terms to local policing bodies in each financial year until 2020.’.

This amendment would guarantee that police funding would be protected in a police grant settlement approved by Parliament before proposals to grant additional police powers to volunteers can be brought forward.

New clause 1—Sale of knives and certain articles with blade or point to persons under eighteen: due diligence checks—

‘(1) The Criminal Justice Act 1988 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 141A, after subsection (4) insert—

“(4A) Due diligence serving to confirm the material facts in relation to a sale over the internet of with respect to the age of a purchaser must include, but is not limited to—

(a) age verification on delivery,

(b) online age verification, and

(c) offline follow up checks.

(4B) The Secretary of State must publish guidance, which the Secretary of State may revise from time to time, on how due diligence verification and checks under section (4A) are to be carried out.’.

This new clause provides a triple lock to ensure that knives are not illegally sold over the Internet to under-18s.

New clause 7—Amendments to the Firearms Act 1968—

‘(1) The Firearms Act 1968 is amended as follows.

(2) Omit section 5(1A)(f).

(3) Omit sections 5A(4), (5), (6), (7) and (8).

(4) Omit section 7(1) and insert—

“(1) A person who has obtained from the chief officer of police for the area in which he resides a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form may, without holding a certificate or authority under this Act, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition in accordance with the terms of the permit.”

(5) At the end of section 28A add—

“(8) Where an individual has applied for the renewal of a certificate before its expiry but the chief constable has not, as at the date of its expiry, determined whether or not to grant the renewal, the certificate is to continue to have effect until the application is determined.”’.

The new clause seeks to make a number of technical changes to the 1968 Firearms Act covering expanding ammunition, section 7 temporary permits and the renewal of firearms certificates in order to clarify the law and reduce the administrative burden on the police and shooting community.

New clause 8—Amendments to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988—

‘(1) The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 15(1) (Approved rifle clubs and muzzle-loading pistol clubs) omit the first “rifle” and for the second “rifle” substitute “firearm”.

(3) Omit section 15(2) and insert—

“(2) Any club may apply for approval, whether or not it is intended that any club members will, by virtue of subsection (1) above, have firearms subject to section 1 or ammunition in their possession without holding firearm certificates.”

(4) Omit section 15(4) and insert—

“(4) The application of subsection (1) above to members of an approved club may—

(a) be excluded in relation to the club, or

(b) be restricted to target shooting with specified types of firearm, by limitations contained in the approval.”

(5) In section 15(7) omit “rifle”.

(6) In section 15(10) omit the first “rifle”.

(7) Omit sections 15(11) and (12).’.

The new clause allows a club to be approved for any type of Section 1 firearm so that if a person using a shotgun or long-barrelled pistol is taken ill, or the firearm malfunctions, another authorised person can legally ‘possess’ (handle) that firearm to assist and/or make it safe.

New clause 9—Authorised persons permitted to lend firearms—

‘(1) In the Firearms Act 1968, omit section 11(5) and insert—

“(5) A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, borrow a shot gun from the owner or occupier of private premises or a person authorised by the owner or occupier and use it on those premises in the presence of the owner, occupier or authorised person.”

(2) In the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, omit section 16(1) and insert—

(a) the owner, occupier or authorised person in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and

(b) the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate; and

(c) where the borrower is of the age of 17, the owner, occupier or authorised person in whose presence the rifle is used is of or over the age of 18.”’.

The new clause would clarify the law as regards who can lend a shotgun or rifle to another person. This addresses the uncertainty currently caused by the term ‘occupier’ in relation to the borrowing of a shotgun or a rifle by a person without a certificate.

New clause 19—Events, festivals and gatherings: control of flares and fireworks etc.—

‘(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he has an article or substance to which this section applies in his possession—

(a) at any time during the period of a qualifying event, festival or gathering when he is within the venue or in any area from which the event, festival or gathering may be directly viewed or physically accessed, or

(b) while entering or trying to enter a venue or area defined in paragraph (1)(a) at any time during the period of the qualifying event, festival or gathering, or

(c) while travelling by any means towards a qualifying event, festival or gathering with the intent to enter a venue or area as defined under paragraph (1)(a).

(2) It is a defence for the accused to prove that possession is with lawful authority.

(3) This section applies to any article or substance whose main purpose is the emission of a flare whether for entertaining, illuminating or signalling (as opposed to igniting or heating) or the emission of smoke or a visible gas or a noise intended to simulate an explosion; and in particular it applies to fireworks, distress flares, fog signals, and pellets and capsules intended to be used as fumigators or for testing pipes, but not to matches, cigarette lighters or heaters.

(4) The Secretary of State may be regulations define or amend—

(a) a “qualifying event, festival or gathering”,

(b) a “period of an event, festival or gathering”,

(c) a “venue or area from which the event, festival or gathering may be directly viewed or physically accessed”, and

(d) articles and substances falling under subsection (3).

(5) The power to make regulations under subsection (4) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument but such an instrument may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction—

(a) in the case of an offence under subsection 1(a) or (b) to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, and

(b) in the case of an offence under subsection 1(c) to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

(7) Nothing in this section shall apply to persons, articles or substances that are lawfully present at, entering, travelling to, or being transported towards, a qualifying event, festival or gathering by virtue of being a planned part of the event, festival or gathering under the responsibility, regulation and control of the organisers.’.

New clause 21—Firearms: Full recovery of the licence costs—

‘(1) The Firearms Act 1968 is amended as follows.

(2) At the end of section 53 insert—

“(4) The Secretary of State must set the sum payable at the full cost to the tax payer of issuing a licence.”’.

This new clause would help to ensure full costs recovery of the licencing of guns.

Amendment 7, in clause 106, page 115, line 22, leave out “the amount of any fee that may be charged” and insert

“that the fee charged must be equal to the full cost to the tax payer of issuing a licence.”

This amendment would help to ensure full costs recovery of the licencing of guns.

Amendment 8,  page 115, line 41, leave out

“the amount of any fee that may be charged”

and insert

“that the fee charged must be equal to the full cost to the tax payer of issuing a licence.”.

This amendment would help to ensure full costs recovery of the licencing of guns.

Amendment 9,  page 116, line 19, leave out

“the amount of any fee that may be charged”

and insert

“that the fee charged must be equal to the full cost to the tax payer of issuing a licence.”.

This amendment would help to ensure full costs recovery of the licencing of guns.

Amendment 1, in clause 107, page 117, line 14, at end insert

“and

(c) other relevant stakeholders.”.

This amendment would require other relevant stakeholders to be consulted in drawing up statutory guidance to the police. The current non-statutory guidance involves consultation between the Home Office, police, shooting organisations and others and all existing parties, not just the police, should be accommodated within the new statutory framework.

Government amendment 62.

New clause 17—Alcohol abstinence and monitoring: cost recovery—

‘(1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 212A, insert at the end of subsection 7(b)—

“(c) arrangements for recovering the cost of testing from the offender by the police.”’.

This would allow the Secretary of State to include to make provision for the police to charge an offender subject to an alcohol abstinence and monitoring requirement for the costs of testing their compliance with such a requirement.

[Karen Bradley]

At this stage I will speak to the Government new clauses and amendment, and I will respond later to the points that are made about other amendments.

Chapter 1 of part 3 will enable chief officers to designate police staff with a wider range of police powers. They will also be able to confer police powers, other than the core powers reserved for warranted officers, on volunteers. The intention is that the powers that can be conferred on employed staff and designated volunteers are the same. This includes the power to carry and use defensive sprays, such as CS gas and PAVA spray, where the chief officer considers that there is an operational case for this. It is already the case that chief officers can equip police community support officers with defensive sprays, and to that extent the Bill codifies the existing position.

New clause 31 makes necessary consequential amendments to the Firearms Act 1968 to ensure that police volunteers are civilian officers for the purposes of that Act. The effect is that they do not then need a certificate or authorisation under section 1 or 5 of the 1968 Act in order to carry a defensive spray.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

I call Kit Malthouse.

[Kit Malthouse]

What an honour it is to be called before all these august Members!

In respect of amendments 11, 12, 13 and 10, I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) on manfully—or indeed womanfully—arguing what seems to be a lost cause; Conservative Members eloquently made the case that the proposals are nonsense.

Fundamentally, the hon. Gentleman is saying through his amendments that he does not trust a chief police officer to get right the architecture around volunteers used in their organisation. He is saying that a chief constable cannot be trusted to organise and train volunteers correctly—but if they cannot be trusted to do that relatively simple task, how can they be trusted to handle some of the risks that they face on a daily basis, even with their warranted force? As he considers these matters over the next couple of hours, I urge him to think about withdrawing his amendments and simply to vote against the Government’s amendments if he believes that to be right. His would be Heath Robinson legislation, as I said, and the House has a duty to keep things simple.

I am extremely supportive of new clause 1. As the hon. Gentleman said, the proliferation of knives, particularly these unpleasant zombie knives, has caused a huge problem, particularly in urban areas and especially in London. We have seen some tragic cases over the last two or three years. A while ago, as people will remember, there was some alarm about air rifles and air-powered weapons; as a result, the legislation on purchasing air rifles was changed so that they could not be bought other than face to face. Now, when someone buys an air rifle online, it has to be delivered by the firearms dealer, who has to verify, face to face on the doorstep, that the person is who they say they are and of the correct age, and that the weapon can be sold to them lawfully. Alternatively, there is a mutual network of firearms dealers operating in such a way that someone can buy from one and pick up from another, who will verify that person’s identity and age.

I am 6 feet 2 inches—nearly—and quite a big chap. I am much more frightened of zombie knives than of air rifles, so I urge the Government to look carefully at new clause 1. It would be a valuable addition to our armoury as we try to keep these weapons out of the hands of people who should not have them. Having said that, I do not think it would be a silver bullet—not much we do in the House is; many of these knives are bought on the dark web, where things are a little more amorphous, identities more difficult to find and things are often posted illegally. Many firearms are bought on the dark web and sent to the UK through the normal post, but the police are becoming quite sophisticated at picking them up, and the same could be true of knives. I therefore urge the Government to adopt the new clause.

I am similarly supportive of new clause 19, on flares at public events. They are not allowed at football matches any more, but elsewhere they often cause injury and terror—people, particularly children, are frightened of them—so it would be sensible to outlaw their use in those circumstances.

Finally, I will speak briefly—we are pressed for time—to new clause 17, which stands in my name. This is a probing amendment, as they say, and I have no intention, at this stage, of putting it to a vote, but I will give Members the back story because it might well appear in the other place.

Members might remember that three or four years ago City Hall ran a big campaign to get a disposal on to the books called “compulsory sobriety”, which manifested itself as alcohol abstinence monitoring orders made against people who have committed a crime where alcohol was a contributory factor. Essentially, an offender, rather than going to prison, which would mean losing their job and contact with their family, is sentenced to wear an alcohol-testing tag or bracelet that, for three, four or six months, tests their skin every 30 seconds to make sure they are not drinking. If they drink and the tag detects it, a signal is sent, the police apprehend them and they go back into the criminal justice system and might well get a custodial sentence. Effectively, the offender is in charge of their own custody.

These orders have been hugely successful in the United States. In South Dakota, where they started, there has been massive compliance and a drop in the number of people arrested for drink-driving and dying on the roads. I learned this morning that there has also been an increase in life span because there is less drinking. South Dakota is a big, flat state; there is not much to do except drink a lot and beat each other up, as in parts of this country. That was happening an awful lot, until these orders were introduced by the now famous prosecutor, Larry Long. They have changed the alcohol environment there entirely.

We managed to get the orders on the statute book here, and a pilot in Croydon over the last couple of years has resulted in a 93% compliance rate among offenders fitted with a tag and an extremely good reoffending rate—once someone has had three to six months off the booze, they do not tend to go back but instead learn the error of their ways. However, there is one aspect of the scheme in the states that we did not adopt but which they think is critical to its success: the ability to charge offenders for their own testing.

In the United States, when somebody is put on this disposal and they go to be tested, more often than not they appear twice a day at the police station, blow into a breathalyser and pay a buck, or a dollar, a test. Effectively, that is money that they would otherwise have spent on booze. From the point of view of the criminal justice system, that makes the scheme self-financing.