Defence Expenditure (NATO Target) Bill

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Friday 23rd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

This has been a very interesting and informative debate. My hon. Friend the Minister gave a most elegant and interesting response, and did so without hesitation, deviation or repetition. [Interruption.] I may have heard an honest admission from him that there might just have been a smidgen of repetition. Nevertheless, I have to disappoint him, because unfortunately he has come nowhere near the record of Sir Ivan Lawrence, who spoke on a Bill to impose fluoridisation, or compulsory medication—or “poisoning”, as he put it. When he started, he had notes all the way along the Bench where he was sitting. He carried on through the night, as we used to do in those days, and ended up at breakfast time. I am afraid that my hon. Friend has a long way to go in his eloquence in order to break that record.

I am most grateful to my right hon. and hon. Friends for their contributions. I will not repeat them because the Minister encapsulated them superbly. My hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) told us about her own personal background and the role played by the British forces in the liberation of the Netherlands. One of the things that forever cemented the relationship between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands was the liberation of that country by our forces. In having her here, we are the beneficiaries of that liberation.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) for pointing out that one of the purposes of the Bill is to ensure that while no Parliament can bind its successor, it nevertheless sends a message that this commitment would be more difficult for a future Government to unwind.

That brings me to the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell), who spoke on behalf of the official Opposition—for she is the official Opposition. She should not allow some people who are not here today to claim that they are the official Opposition, because the Scot Nats are not the official Opposition—she is. For as long as Labour’s policy is as she enunciated it today, we should be okay—but who knows? We cannot predict the future.

I am particularly grateful to the Chairman of the Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). This House voted overwhelmingly for him to become Chairman. He is hugely knowledgeable in these matters and has a reputation for forensic analysis.

The Minister is a great friend of mine, and I very much appreciate what he said. I must say, though, that I had no idea the EU had produced some kind of new GDP calculator. Why were we not told? [Interruption.] He says from a sedentary position that we were. I have seen no briefing anywhere indicating that there has been any such change. He was also unable to say whether we had adjusted this formula in the past. I hope that we will not be adjusting it again in future.

What it comes down to is this: we are all agreed. Nobody in this House today has opposed the idea that this nation needs to spend a minimum of 2% of GDP on defence. We are on common ground, and even the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), who is nodding, is in that camp. The only difference is that every Conservative Member who has spoken in this debate seeks to enshrine that commitment in law. We do not believe that the Government are sending the right signal by saying that they are prepared to enshrine in law a commitment of 0.7% to overseas aid, but that they are not prepared to do that for defence.

My hon. Friend the Minister suggests that passing this Bill would somehow restrict the Treasury’s budget flexibility, but perhaps some thought should have been given to that argument when previous commitments were made to the overseas aid Bill.

My hon. Friend also said that the United States commends us for the work we have done. That is good news, because when I visited Washington last year the US was hugely concerned about Britain’s perceived lack of commitment to defence spending. I hear what my hon. Friend says about Ash Carter, who is proving to be a very good Secretary of Defence and I hope the United States will stick with him.

The reason I am going to press the Bill is not just that, as my hon. Friend the Minister was kind enough to say—and I really appreciate this—I am absolutely committed to the defence of the realm. I am a conviction politician. I came into Parliament because I passionately believe in my country, and I do so not just because I am the Member of Parliament for the home of the British Army or because I was commissioned in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. I believe with every fibre of my being that we are in a dangerous world. We want to contribute something to make it a better place, and nothing leverages influence in this world as much as defence.

That is why it is imperative that the Government show their commitment to supporting my Bill. I am disappointed that they are not doing so and I will rest my case on what the Minister said. He said that 2% is a sign of our intent. I could not agree with him more. My Bill reinforces that intent with vigour and it should be read a second time.

Question put, That the Bill be read a Second time.

The House proceeded to a Division.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I heard the Minister say a few moments ago that the Government were opposed to my Bill. I therefore find it slightly surprising that no members of the Government were in the No Lobby. I wondered whether I should take it as a good omen that between my calling for a vote and your calling the Division, the Government had a change of heart and really wish to support my Bill, but were a little reluctant to say so. I hope that means that my Bill can be brought back in a suitable form, and that the Government will accept it in due course.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am in no position to say whether that assumption is correct. However, just because Members on the Government Benches shouted “No”, that did not oblige them to take part in the vote.

[Mr Bone]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Of course I absolutely understand your ruling. I normally sit behind the Treasury Bench. Is it not extraordinary for a whole row of people in front of me—I think they are collectively called Whips in this House—to scream “No” at the top of their voices but then not go into the No Lobby? That does not seem to be following the convention of the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, having received the same advice from the Clerk as I did, it does not have to follow that just because people have shouted “No”, they have to participate in the Division. They cannot vote in the opposite Lobby, but they do not have to participate.