Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nadhim Zahawi and Matt Western

Monday 1st November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Nadhim Zahawi]

Indeed I do, and he is a great Mayor who is transforming the city of Birmingham and the rest of the west midlands. My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that subjects such as PPE are incredibly important and that many leaders in industry do not necessarily have STEM degrees.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State to his place. As a neighbour, and possibly a friend, it is good to see him here.

This nation has long produced some of the best creatives in the world—in fact, the arts are a powerhouse for the country’s economy—yet the Government have a myopic view on the value of everything. Their present focus is that ballerinas should be coders, but for decades people from low-income households in particular have not just benefited from their discovery and study of the arts but gone on to enrich this country of ours and, at the same time, generated soft power. I think of people such as Danny Boyle, Tracey Emin, Annie Lennox, David Bowie and Alison Lapper—the list is endless. People’s lives are infused with the arts as they listen to music on their iPods, read fiction, attend museums and watch TV dramas, dance and so on. Given that the UK creative industries are truly global-leading and make such a significant contribution to our economy, why are the Government so determined to limit people’s social mobility and our wider economic success?

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend—I think he is—for his question, although I completely disagree with him. Nevertheless, it is important to remember that the arts play an incredible role in enriching minds, especially young minds, and in inward investment to the United Kingdom and exports from the UK. We continue to value high-quality provision in a range of subjects critical to our workforce, including the arts. That is why I mentioned the work of the Office for Students in reinvesting an additional £10 million in our world-leading specialist providers, many of which specialise in arts provision.

National Security and Investment Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Nadhim Zahawi and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 10th December 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I remind her that the legislation requires the Secretary of State to act in a quasi-judicial way, not as a political figure. I appreciate that by a normal reading, “appears” may appear unduly casual, but that is merely a question of the form of legislative drafting, which is consistent, I remind her, with previous relevant legislation.

In addition, I reassure the hon. Lady that the principles of public law apply in any case. The Secretary of State therefore needs to act reasonably in fulfilling his functions under the Bill. That includes having a reasonable basis, supported by sufficient evidence, for coming to the conclusion that a person appears to be an overseas public authority prior to disclosing information. I hope I have provided the Committee with sufficient reassurances, and I therefore hope that the Opposition will withdraw the amendment.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

I just want clarification from the Minister on the point of that being semi-judicial.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

Quasi-judicial.

[Matt Western]

Quasi-judicial; sorry. How does that square with the responsibilities of the Minister in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy?

[Nadhim Zahawi]

It is not a strange concept that a Minister acts in a quasi-judicial way in making such decisions.

I will now briefly turn to clause 55, which makes provision for specific restrictions in respect of information received under clause 54 from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. For the regime to function effectively, the Secretary of State needs access to the right information at the right time in order to make decisions with the fullest range of evidence available. One such source of information that might be invaluable to the Secretary of State is HMRC. Although the Government expect that the Secretary of State would seek first to secure the information he needs from the parties, it is important that such information can also be provided from elsewhere in Government, if it is held there.

Clause 55 provides that where information is received by the Secretary of State from HMRC or an onward recipient pursuant to clause 54, it may not be used for purposes other than the Secretary of State’s function under the Bill, and nor may it be further disclosed without HMRC’s consent. Clause 35 provides that disclosing information in contravention of clause 55(1) is an offence, as is appropriate.

National Security and Investment Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Nadhim Zahawi and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 9th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 8th December 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Nadhim Zahawi]

With your indulgence, Mr Twigg, I intend to speak first to clause 23 stand part, then to amendment 22 and new clause 4.

We are committed to the regime providing as much clarity, certainty and predictability as possible for businesses and investors. It is therefore right that we are setting out how long the Secretary of State may take to carry out a full national security assessment and make a final decision on a trigger event following a call-in notice.

Subsection (3)(a) provides for an initial assessment period of 30 working days. The Government have taken advice from the security community, and we consider that in the majority of cases 30 working days will allow for a full national security assessment and for the Secretary of State to decide whether to clear the trigger event outright or to impose final remedies on it.

More complex cases are possible, however, and it is important that a longer period is available for the Secretary of State to consider them. The clause therefore enables the Secretary of State to issue a notice to extend the assessment by 45 working days to assess the trigger event further, for example to determine the extent of the national security risk or to decide on appropriate remedies. That is referred to as the “additional period” under subsection (3)(b). The clause also provides for the assessment period to be further extended beyond the additional period, but only with the written consent of the acquirer. That is termed a “voluntary period” under subsection (3)(c).

The Government are clear that extensions should not be used lightly. The clause therefore includes specific legal tests for their use. To extend the assessment into the additional period, the Secretary of State must reasonably believe, as the hon. Lady referred to, that a trigger event has taken place, or is in progress or contemplation, and that this has given or would give rise to a national security risk. The Secretary of State must also reasonably consider that the additional time is required to assess the trigger event further.

To agree a voluntary period extension with the acquirer, the Secretary of State must be satisfied that, on the balance of probabilities, a trigger event has taken place, or is in progress or contemplation, and that this has given or would give rise to a national security risk. The Secretary of State must also reasonably consider—the third bullet point the hon. Lady mentioned—that the period is required to consider whether to impose final remedies or what those remedies should be.

What the Secretary of State may not do is simply extend the assessment period because it is convenient. The clause is drafted in this way to ensure that we protect the investors and businesses that the hon. Lady quite rightly cares about, as do Government Members, and allow them to operate and thrive in our economy. I hope that hon. Members feel assured that the Government have sought to carefully balance the flexibility required for the Secretary of State to deal with the most complex cases and the need to provide businesses and investors with clear time lines.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

Just to understand and clarify the point about how realistic the voluntary period might be, in terms of getting the written agreement of the acquirer, in the Minister’s experience, how realistic is it that a business would accede to that? The business might be under financial pressure, looking for cash or a financial injection, which is the whole point about bringing in private equity. How will the Government ensure that that is possible, when all those other pressures are coming into play?

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; it is a great question. We are all worrying about the small and medium-sized businesses that his particular angle would very much apply to. He will recall that, in the evidence sessions, we heard evidence to suggest that business founders and directors are best placed to know if their business has a national security angle, so the Secretary of State will clearly work with those business owners, innovators and pioneers to try to mitigate the national security risk while making sure that they can survive and thrive. It is in no one’s interests for them not to do well in the United Kingdom; that would probably create a greater national security threat.

[Matt Western]

Just to be clear, if a business is desperately seeking that inward investment, surely it would be less likely to write and agree with the Secretary of State about the additional period, because it is desperate for the funds.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I absolutely hear what the hon. Gentleman says. The issue then becomes one of national security. As we heard in the evidence sessions, most founders and directors know exactly what they are inventing and what their intellectual property is, and therefore whether there is a national security risk, however nascent the business may be.

I briefly turn to amendment 22. I am grateful for the Opposition’s continued, and in some ways unexpected, push for ever greater powers for the Secretary of State, who I am certain will be most delighted. The amendment would remove the requirement for the Secretary of State to agree the use of a voluntary period or a further voluntary period with the acquirer to consider whether to make a final order or what provision that final order should contain. I do not believe that would be the right approach.

We have set much store in the statutory timescales provided for in the Bill. It is vital for the businesses and investors that we all care about that they have confidence in when they can expect decisions so that they can plan accordingly, which goes back to the point of the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington about planning for an investment or fundraising event. That is why any extension of the assessment period, beyond the collective 75 maximum working days of the initial period and the additional period combined, requires agreement from the acquirer in recognition of the fact that the process is being lengthened beyond the customary timeline. Enabling the Secretary of State to do that unilaterally would be a matter of concern for business and investment communities alike.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We have had that debate already, and we have set out clearly what we think is appropriate to be in the report, notwithstanding what we might do in future if that allows investors to have greater clarity.

[Matt Western]

I was going to make exactly the same point as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test. Surely the intent behind the question is how we make the operation of the provision much more efficient. We are starting from a zero base. The suggestion that we consider future demands and implications is a constructive one.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I see where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. The House has many levers at its disposal, including the Select Committee process, to probe the effectiveness of the new regime.

I shall now make some headway. The provision is designed to ensure that orders reflect changing circumstances and do not remain in force for perpetuity without further consideration. Parties subject to orders may themselves request that the Secretary of State vary or revoke their order. This is another mechanism to ensure that orders remain appropriate. The Secretary of State must consider such requests unless the request relates to a final order and, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, there has been no material change in circumstances since the order was made or last varied, or if the party concerned has previously made a request to vary or revoke the order since that request.

National Security and Investment Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Nadhim Zahawi and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st December 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

I am not sure that the Minister has; it is always a pleasure to hear his dulcet tones. In all seriousness, is this not open to interpretation with a change of Secretary of State, in the way that we have seen in the US with a change of President, and how that President chooses to define what national security means?

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am grateful for the hon. Member’s contribution. Of course, no Government can tie the hands of future Governments, if that is his argument.

Moving on, I commend hon. Members for their interest in the process and function of the regime, made clear through amendment 9, which provides for additions to the statement about the exercise of the call-in power. It aims to ensure that the regime created by the Bill is properly resourced with the right numbers of skilled staff. The hon. Member for Ilford South was thoughtful in his concern about that. However, I would say to him and other Members that the purpose of the statement is to set out how the Secretary of State expects to exercise the power to give a call-in notice. It will provide information on the types of scenarios where the Secretary of State may consider there to be a national security risk. It would not be appropriate to add details about how the regime will be staffed.

Furthermore, internal arrangements on resource and skills are a matter for the Secretary of State and, of course, the permanent secretary at BEIS. I reassure hon. Members, however, that the Bill compels—this is the lever for Parliament, in my view—the Secretary of State to publish an annual report, which will provide information on the number of mandatory notices accepted and rejected, the number of voluntary notifications accepted and rejected, and the number of call-in notices and final orders made. That review is incredibly important in measuring performance. The exact details and requirements for the annual report are set out in clause 61. I will not go through all of them.

For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments and hope that Opposition Members feel able to withdraw them.

National Security and Investment Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Nadhim Zahawi and Matt Western

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th November 2020 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)]

Q It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. Dr Ashley, considering your experience of other countries—we talked about the US at length in the first couple of questions—such as Japan and Germany, what are your views on the retrospective powers under our Bill?

Dr Lenihan: Personally, I think they are fine. I know that might not be a popular answer with some. Germany, France and even parts of the EU framework set up this five-year retroactive for cases. I think that that is at minimum important. Other countries, such as China, Russia and the US, do not place any limit on retroactivity. I would have to check up on Australia and Canada, but there have been cases that have gone beyond a year there. Under the original Government White Paper, the idea of having only a six-month period, whether or not you have been notified, is quite dangerous, because there have been cases that were well known where they have been caught after that point.

Some of my examples are from the US. The reason for that is that it is one of the longest-standing and most institutionalised regimes. It is also one of the most transparent, from which we know most about the cases that have gone through it. I have looked at over 200 cases of this type of investment over a seven-year period in the US, UK, Europe, China and Russia. One case that stands out in the US is the 3Leaf acquisition by Huawei, which was caught almost at the year mark. Another good example that went over the one-year mark would be the review in 2005 retroactively of Smartmatic, which was a Venezuelan software company, and its purchase of Sequoia Voting Systems, which was a US voting machines firm. Smartmatic was believed to have ties to Chavez. However, that acquisition completed without knowledge of CFIUS and it was not actually able to be unwound until 2007. At that point, you worry about what has happened, but at least you do not have the ongoing concern.

You do need flexibility. With the volume of notifications and the learning curve that the investment security unit will have to undergo, or whatever the final regime truly looks like, it will take time to get the team in place and get the knowledge and systems down, to accurately catch even the most obvious investments that are of concern. Dealing with the kind of evolving and emerging threats we see in terms of novel investments from countries such as China, Russia and Venezuela needs the flexibility to look at retroactively and potentially unwind transactions that the Secretary of State and the investment security unit were not even aware of.

One thing is that for mergers and acquisitions transactions, which are historically what have been covered under these regimes, across Europe, Australia, Canada, Russia, China and the US, all the systems that have been used—the M and A databases: Thomson ONE, Zephyr, Orbis—take training, but they only cover certain types of transaction. They do not cover asset transactions; they do not cover real estate transactions, which are of increasing concern, especially for espionage purposes.

It is going to take time, and I believe that flexibility really needs to be there. It can always be reviewed in the future, but I do not think that so far foreign investment has been deterred in any way in countries that have that retroactive capability. To limit the UK’s capacity to protect itself for some kind of strange feeling that we need to be perceived as being even more open than everybody else when under threat is not really wise at this time.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

Q It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. Dr Lenihan, I am keen to know more about whether, other than in the US, you have seen good exemplar approaches to screening investments into these sectors; we spoke about Japan and Germany a moment ago. Can you give examples which we might learn from?

Dr Lenihan: I do think the US system is the most institutionalised that we have, and the best at the moment. That being said, Germany’s system is very good; it has caught quite a bit. The German system has also been very good about regularly updating, changing and adapting its regulations as it sees new emerging threats to itself. They seem to have good feed-in across Government and they are exceptionally good at co-ordinating with other states in terms of information of concern.

In terms of national security review, Canadian and Australian systems are quite good. The problem with those systems is that they tend to do national interest reviews at the same time or in tandem with their national security reviews. Over the long term, including national interest in the regime has had an impact on how they are perceived in terms of their openness to foreign direct investment abroad. In the OECD’s FDI restrictedness index, Canada and Australia rank far lower than the US, the UK, Germany and France, and I think this is because of their inclusion of national interest concerns. Similarly, on the World Economic Forum’s global competitiveness index, they rank far lower. That does not provide investors with the type of clarity that they need. In general, we see that investors tend not to be dissuaded from investing just because there is a new foreign direct investment regime, as long as that regime is seen to have clear regulatory guidance, is transparent, and is applied consistently over time.

France sometimes gets quite a bad reputation for economic nationalism, but its review mechanism is also quite good at catching potential threats to national security. Japan is an interesting case. It has been so restrictive for so long that it is a little harder to compare with the other western countries. Its system has been tied in again to an overarching inward investment regime that has been restrictive towards foreign investment for other means beyond national security, so I find that country to be less of a comparator for these purposes. I hope that answers the question.