Finance (No. 4) Bill

Nadhim Zahawi Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

I am tempted to say to my hon. Friend that the golden phrase “expansionary fiscal contraction” tells us all that we need to know about the ability of those on the Treasury Bench. Expansionary fiscal contraction! That is working really well, isn’t it? It is going splendidly.

[Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)]

If we set aside the shadow Minister’s amendment, which would leave us with a 40p top rate of tax—[Interruption.] Let us set that aside for the moment. My question to him is this: would he reverse the decision on the 50p tax rate if he were in office? A yes or no is all I require.

[Owen Smith]

Yes. Right now, we would not have cut the 50p rate in this Parliament. Full stop. End of. Thank you very much.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

rose—

[Owen Smith]

No, the hon. Gentleman has just heard my answer. Throughout this Parliament, we would not have done that. No tax rate is set in stone for ever, but the question of whether we would reverse that decision is irrelevant because we are not in government. You lot are, and you cut it, but that would not have been our priority. Neither was it the priority of the present Chancellor just 18 months ago. When we introduced the 50p rate, we said that we wanted those with the broadest shoulders to pay the most, in order to deal with the global turmoil—[Interruption.] Members should just listen for a moment. When he was shadow Chancellor, the present Chancellor said that he agreed with us. In October 2009, he said that

“we could not even think of abolishing the 50p rate on the rich while at the same time I am asking many of our public sector workers to accept a pay freeze to protect their jobs. I think we can all agree that would be grossly unfair.”

I still agree with that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Broadly speaking, of course I agree with the hon. Gentleman; a very high tax rate could act as a disincentive to many people and, as the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) was intimating, could make this country uncompetitive compared with other countries. However, I just ask two questions in return, the first of which is: what counts as a “very high” tax rate? That is a judgment call; it is about our rate relative to that of others and whether we have the balance right. My second question is: given that, when is the right time to change? I just say to hon. Members that now is not the time, because this country will gird our economic loins and start seeing economic growth only if everybody does genuinely feel we are all in it together. This move undermines that precise point.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech and some serious points. He talks about the relativity of the level at which we set income tax, but of course we must not forget that it is not just 50p because there is national insurance on top, taking one over the 60p mark to 62p. Some of the things we need to look at are the behavioural changes we saw when income was moved to avoid the 50p rate when it was first brought in, and the disparity between corporation tax and capital gains tax. When income is taxed at 62% but capital gains and corporation tax rates are much lower, those very wealthy individuals who are creating wealth have options to move money around, so there will be behavioural change as we go up the income tax scale and create that differential.

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Broadly speaking, I agree with elements of what he said. For example, it is a mistake, as hon. Members have said, to seek to tax people solely via their income because that is not the sole determinant of wealth and therefore of what one should put into the national pot. Similarly, I am quite critical of those in my constituency who say, “Mrs Jones down the road—she’s never paid tax.” Nobody never pays tax because everybody pays VAT in some shape or form; everybody makes some kind of contribution. My fundamental point is that now is not the right time to change the top rate. We are living in austere times and if the country is to gird its economic loins, we need everyone to be on the same side, but this measure is relatively divisive.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

rose—

[Alison McGovern]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Stuart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, although properly designated permanent homes will continue to be VAT-free. We are talking about static holiday homes that are not supposed to be a main residence, although there are people in my constituency and elsewhere who are occupying under false pretences, whether misled by the owner of the park, as sometimes happens, or having allowed themselves to be misled.

[Nadhim Zahawi]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. What would he say to a dealer and park operator in my constituency who said that we cannot defend the anomaly for what is deemed a luxury purchase? They want a bit more time for consultation and forward planning. The idea that a towable caravan is VATable, but a static one is not is indefensible.

[Mr Stuart]

In truth, if we were starting with a blank sheet the tax system would look nothing like it does today, but we are not starting with a blank sheet. We have an industry with the characteristics I have described, yet at this of all times we are about to introduce VAT. Will it raise £500 million or £1 billion towards the massive deficit left to us by Labour? No. At best, it will raise £45 million a year while damaging the economy in east Yorkshire and in rural areas across the UK. As a practical politician, keen though I am on tax simplification, it is not obvious to me that this particular simplification is justified now. It is not, and the Government should think again.

The Government are consulting; they accept that they do not have all the answers and the proposal is out for consultation. The shadow Chancellor may not take it at face value that the Government are serious and that they are consulting properly, but I do. I have met the Chancellor and he has told me that that is the case, so I call on the Government to listen to the representations from the Chamber today and to those that will come from the industry over coming days and weeks, and to think again. Given the appalling inheritance from the shadow Chancellor, there is no embarrassment in looking hard at every area. There is a good intellectual case for the proposal in theory, but in practice it is a bad idea. It will not bring in enough money. It threatens many jobs and it should be rejected, as I am sure it will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Lady makes an accurate point. Pasty producers tell me that they are already feeling the squeeze. They are feeling the same pressures as us all through fuel costs and so on. They simply do not feel that they can reduce the net price and therefore absorb that extra 20% so there are serious concerns that it will add problems to an already damaged industry.

The Government’s change is supposed to be about simplification and replacing the subjective test of the purpose of selling the pasty under the current VAT rules with a much simpler test, but in fact we are only replacing one set of anomalies with another. VAT will be charged if the pasty is bought hot but not if it is bought cold. Will we have an army of HMRC inspectors going around with their standard issue thermometers and testing pasties?

[Nadhim Zahawi]

In my constituency, the Subway franchisee sells cold sandwiches without VAT and must charge VAT when the sandwiches are heated. Spudulike has to charge VAT. The idea that when one serves hot food one has to charge VAT—even in the chip shop in Stratford—is only about levelling the playing field—

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. That is not brief enough and interventions should ask a question.