Postal Services Bill

Mike Weir Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Vince Cable]

The amendment to which my right hon. Friend refers was tabled by the nationalists rather than by the Labour Opposition. I think that it was drafted before the nationalists were aware of our proposals to strengthen the network. I hope that when they hear what we have to say they will rethink their amendment, because we will have done a great deal to meet their concerns.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

It will be interesting to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say. The National Federation of SubPostmasters has raised its concern about the split between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. It has pointed out that it cannot find anywhere else in the world where there is such a split between the delivery network and the post office network. Can he give us such an example?

[Vince Cable]

I will address the matters that the hon. Gentleman has described in detail. I remember him campaigning on this issue in the previous Parliament, when he lost nine sub-post offices in his constituency. We are implementing measures that will stop that happening in future. When he hears about them he will be considerably reassured.

Turning to the background to the legislation, there is, as I have said, a lot of common ground.

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[Vince Cable]

As I say, investment capital availability ultimately comes down to the individual decision of individual postmasters. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) pointed out, these are individual investment decisions, but the network will in future be put on a structurally sound, properly funded basis. That is the essence of the reforms that we are introducing.

[Mr Weir]

rose—

[Vince Cable]

I will press on. The hon. Gentleman has had his say.

In addition to funding, we are injecting new ideas. We have been re-thinking the role of post offices in providing Government and banking services, and we will be coming back shortly with a fuller statement on that problem, setting out some new and positive ideas that I hope will command support on both sides of the House and in the country.

I would like to reassure the House with respect to the relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail. The Post Office is currently a subsidiary of Royal Mail, but they are separate companies and they are very different businesses. As part of our plans for both companies, the Bill will allow for the separation of Royal Mail and the Post Office. Separation will give the Post Office management greater freedom to focus on the branch network and providing new services, but I want to make it clear that in this case at least, separation is not a first step towards divorce.

The Post Office and Royal Mail will continue to work closely together. Each company needs the other. Post offices carried out over 3 billion mail transactions for Royal Mail last year. The two companies are closely linked in the public mind, and are bound together by an overwhelming commercial imperative. There is currently a long-term contract in place between the two companies, and there will continue to be a long-term commercial contract in place. The chief executive of Royal Mail has said that it would be “unthinkable” that there will not always be a strong relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail.

I shall move on to Royal Mail ownership and the processes involved in the sale of shares.

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[Mr Denham]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will happily take another intervention from him when I come to my point on protecting the public interest during the sale.

I said that the Bill excludes the public from any potential long-term gain from a transformed Royal Mail, but in addition the benefits could go entirely to overseas interests. Frankly, I am surprised how sanguine the Secretary of State is at that prospect, because faced with the sale of Cadbury to Kraft, he said:

“It is particularly galling…that state-owned RBS should part fund this takeover when it is clearly not in the interests of the UK economy.”

I must point out that the Secretary of State is today effectively using taxpayers’ money to transfer the ownership of Royal Mail overseas.

There are good reasons to worry about the public interest during the sales process. On one side will be potential buyers, who will have every interest in lobbying for the maximum commercial freedom for the operation and for the minimum of social obligation. The other side—we might like to think this means the Secretary of State, but it means the Treasury—has an interest in gaining the highest price. Both sides, therefore, will argue to cut social obligation to a minimum. It is not difficult to anticipate the outcome of that situation. I suspect that one reason the Secretary of State was able to say so little on the long-term interest of Royal Mail in the post office network is precisely that he is caught uncomfortably in the vice between the Treasury and potential buyers.

[Mr Weir]

I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman and agree with a lot of what he says. He mentioned the pressures of the sale. Has he seen the letter from the current chief executive officer of Royal Mail, who argues for loosening social obligations now? Is that an indication of how things will go?

[Mr Denham]

I have seen that letter, and I will refer to it a little later, if I may.

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[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on making his maiden speech. I have been to Woking only once, and he missed out its most famous citizen—the great Paul Weller.

Turning to the matter at hand, although our amendment was not selected, it sets out the feeling of the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru and all the parties from Northern Ireland, including the Democratic Unionist party; although DUP Members did not sign the amendment, they support its aims. We fear for the future of the universal service obligation if the Post Office is privatised.

I contributed submissions to Richard Hooper’s original work. I agreed with much of what he said in the end, but I strongly opposed the part-privatisation proposed by the previous Government and absolutely oppose the full privatisation proposed by this Government. Today, the Business Secretary argued that regulation will protect the universal service guarantee and that there is therefore no need to maintain Royal Mail as a public company, but it is inevitable that the pressures from a fully private company will lead to a reduction in the universal service.

Over the summer, the Business Secretary appeared to recognise that the current six days a week pick up and delivery service may not survive and suggested that a five days a week service might be sufficient. That accords with the current definition of the universal service, which does not include Saturday deliveries, so the Government already envisage the service declining. That position was justified on the grounds that it would not discriminate against any area, since it would be the same service whether someone resides in Kensington or Kyleakin. However, that is not quite the case. If I reside or run a business in Kensington, I am sure that there are a number of different services to which I can turn, but it is somewhat different in rural areas of Scotland where Royal Mail is the only service that will pick up and deliver mail. That vital point must be borne in mind when we consider the Bill’s proposals.

We are dealing not only with residential customers but with business customers, many of whom, in more rural and remote areas, rely absolutely on Royal Mail, which is the only carrier that is obliged and able to deliver a service to them. Does anyone really believe that that will continue in a fully privatised environment? How long will it be before a private owner such as TNT or Deutsche Post argues that it is at a competitive disadvantage because it is the only company required to offer a universal service? How long will it be before it wants the agreement to be watered down or requires public subsidy to enable it to continue?

Such an outcome would be a disaster for rural business. Only this week, the Government talked about the need to increase broadband access in rural areas. All too often Royal Mail is considered old-fashioned—it is seen as Postman Pat and his black and white cat touring Greendale as opposed to the brave new world of broadband. Although broadband is important in rural areas, which would benefit enormously from faster access, one cannot send goods down a telephone line or a fibre optic cable. Unless some entrepreneur in this brave new world comes up with Star Trek transporters, we will still require a physical delivery service to go up and down dale and glen to pick up and deliver physical objects. At the moment, the only company that will guarantee to do that is Royal Mail. We have to take that on board and do nothing that will undermine the service if we are to encourage the regeneration of our rural areas and create jobs in the new green economy.

I appreciate that many Government Members firmly believe in the overriding primacy of private enterprise, but even private enterprise sometimes needs public help. I was intrigued by the Prime Minister’s speech to the CBI earlier this week in which he said that

“business confidence doesn’t just come from financial and human assets. It comes from physical assets too—from our infrastructure.”

I do not often agree with the Prime Minister, but I think that is absolutely correct. He recognises the need for substantial public investment in the infrastructure needed to help businesses develop. Infrastructure is not just roads, railways and broadband—it is also investment in existing systems that provide a backbone for many businesses. Infrastructure assets such as Royal Mail provide new entrepreneurial businesses in many of our rural areas with an essential service that enables them to operate, grow and create jobs. They do that in many areas that are about to be hit very hard by the reduction in public sector employment.

I am interested in the fascinating myth-busters leaflet published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)]

It is good.

[Mr Weir]

Indeed. Let me quote one of the myths in the leaflet:

“Growth in parcels from online shopping will outweigh falls in letter volumes”.

The response states:

“The parcels market is much smaller than the letters market and has been fully liberalised since 1981, making it highly competitive.”

It might be highly competitive, but many carriers will not deliver to remote and rural areas, particularly to Scottish islands, except at immense cost. There is a real danger in going down the route of privatising postal services.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

The Bill mentions, in clause 30:

“At least one delivery of letters every Monday to Saturday…to the home or premises of every individual…in the United Kingdom”

at a uniform price. What better guarantee than that does the hon. Gentleman want?

[Mr Weir]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the summer his Business Secretary said that the service might go down to five days a week, so he recognises that it might be reduced. He also said that European regulations rightly ask only for a five day a week service. Any privatised service will inevitably want to cut costs and there will be pressure on the Government to allow that.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Weir]

I shall not give way again; time is getting on.

I pointed out in an intervention that the chief executive officer of Royal Mail is calling for an overhaul of the regulatory regime, including the ability to price products freely, to put limitations on the products covered by the universal service obligation and for the USO fully to cover its costs—the cost of delivering a letter to the islands of Scotland is about £30 not 30p—and for restrictions on access to the Royal Mail network by competitors. If a privately owned Royal Mail goes down that route, the pressure on the Government and regulators could be immense and could mean a substantial rise in postal costs to rural areas. It would be the ultimate irony if the Bill meant that a privatised Royal Mail was given an ability to compete against other privatised companies that it was denied when it was a public body.

I should like to say more about post offices—[Interruption.] I would take another intervention if it gave me two more minutes. The Business Secretary failed to explain how mutualisation would work. He failed to say how a post office that has moved into a branch of WH Smith, as many have, will form part of a mutual. How will individually owned—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Time is up. [Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman resume his seat? I ask Members to stick to six minutes. Interventions with four seconds to go can give more time, as has just happened, and the hon. Gentleman benefited from that.

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[Mr Reid]

No. I am afraid that I have already taken the two interventions that I am allowed.

The Post Office is extremely important, and it is also important for the whole Government to back it. Given that it has branches throughout the country, it is in an ideal position to deliver Government services. I hope that we shall not see from this Government some of the silo thinking that we saw from the last Government. I am thinking particularly of the Department for Work and Pensions. Owing to the way in which government is structured in Departments, there is often an incentive for silo thinking, and for looking only at an individual Department’s budget and not the wider budget. I can understand the pressures on the DWP to cut costs and therefore perhaps to allow services such as the payment of pensions and benefits to go to a competitor that does not have as wide a network as Royal Mail and the Post Office, but I hope that those pressures will be resisted, that the whole Government will back the Post Office, and that in particular when considering the contract for the payment of benefit cheques, the DWP will continue to give it to the Post Office. Any other private sector competitor does not have the same widespread network.

The key test of whether I would support the Bill was always going to be, “Does it protect the universal service obligation?” The Bill clearly passes that test. I intervened on the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), because he clearly had not read the Bill. I draw his attention to clause 28(1), which states:

“OFCOM must carry out their functions in relation to postal services in a way that they consider will secure the provision of a universal postal service”,

and to subsection (2), which states:

“the power of OFCOM to impose access or other regulatory conditions is subject to the duty imposed by subsection (1).”

That is the USO.

[Mr Weir]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Reid]

Very briefly, because I will not get an extra minute, as the hon. Gentleman did following my intervention on him.

[Mr Weir]

The point I was making is that we have a six-day service now, that the Bill guarantees only a five-day service and that the Business Secretary seemed to think that that was sufficient.

[Mr Reid]

The Bill requires

“At least one delivery of letters every Monday to Saturday—

(a) to the home or premises of every individual or other person in the United Kingdom”.

The hon. Gentleman is getting confused between the Bill and the European directive. The directive guarantees only five days. What the Secretary of State has been saying is that he already has the power under the European Communities Act 1972 to reduce the service to five days, by order, but he has no intention of using it because the Bill guarantees six days. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to read clause 30.

I am also delighted that clause 44 allows Ofcom to impose a duty on other mail operators to make a contribution towards the cost of the USO if that is necessary. I have been campaigning on that for many years. The previous Government resisted it and I am delighted that this Government have put that in the Bill.

I support the Bill and congratulate the Secretary of State on bringing it forward. I believe that it covers all angles and that it will deliver sustainable postal services in all parts of the country.