Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Mike Penning and Stella Creasy

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

Again, I do not disagree. I believe that these are issues for the people of Northern Ireland, but I recognise that this situation arises in the first place because of antiquated legislation written in the United Kingdom, so it is right that this place takes responsibility for the antiquated legislation that is causing these human rights problems in Northern Ireland.

The trouble for me with all this is that I know that the Secretary of State agrees, because as she said to the Women and Equalities Committee last week, she agrees that the situation with the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is untenable. She agrees that it is an error that the commission is not able to bring cases directly. Right now, because of her Government’s failure to act on these issues, we are in the position that it would take a rape victim coming to court and having to explain their situation to address the laws that we have.

The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right when she points to that Supreme Court ruling, which is what should really matter today, because that is where that public-purse money is going. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission took the Government—our own Government—to court. How can we lecture on human rights around the world when our own Government are being taken to court? The Supreme Court ruled that the situation in Northern Ireland was “incompatible” with human rights; that it treated women—UK taxpayers—as “vehicles”; and that it was “untenable” and in need of “radical reconsideration”.

The Court stated:

“Those responsible for ensuring the compatibility of Northern Ireland law with the Convention rights will no doubt recognise and take account of these conclusions, at as early a time as possible, by considering whether and how to amend the law, in the light of the ongoing suffering being caused by it”.

That was June 2018, months and months ago—months of continued suffering for the people of Northern Ireland, and yes, in relation to today’s debate, months of continued expenditure from the public purse to keep these laws in place for women like Sarah Ewart, who went for a 19-week scan and was told that the baby she was carrying had a fatal defect, that the brain and skull had not developed properly and that it would inevitably die, either before it was born or moments after.

The horror about these laws is shown by the horror for Sarah Ewart and her family in the treatment that they then experienced, having had that devastating diagnosis. Mrs Ewart said that she was refused advice on how to seek a termination. When she asked about having an abortion at a hospital in Belfast, doctors informed her that it was not an option in Northern Ireland. When she inquired as to where she might be able to go to seek a termination elsewhere, they said they were not even able to give her any information to help her. They said their hands were tied: “We can’t tell you anything. We would be prosecuted if we give you that information.”

Some days later, having consulted as many people as she could and certain that hers was one of the rare and exceptional cases in which an abortion could be performed in Northern Ireland, Mrs Ewart met a second consultant. That woman banged her files on the desk and said:

“I’m not going to prison for anyone.”

That is the chilling effect of this situation on the human rights of the woman of Northern Ireland in 2019.

The High Court has told us that the situation is untenable. We know that the same egregious distress is caused by the situation around equal marriage. So when I see the Secretary of State saying that it is a devolved matter and trying to deny basic Vienna convention rights, I also see the mess we are in today with this legislation, whereby money will be wasted. There are rights that she should be upholding and acting to protect, but instead we will put money into prosecuting people—into raids and court cases. It is denying people their basic rights—rights that other courts will have to uphold. What a waste. What a waste of time, effort, money and, above all, dignity for the people of Northern Ireland.

These amendments and this debate are about the dignity of the people of Northern Ireland and about treating them as equal citizens of the United Kingdom. They are about not shirking our responsibility to those men and women to uphold their rights, not matter how uncomfortable that may be and no matter how difficult some in this Chamber may find it. The sight of Government-funded lawyers defending the denial of somebody’s right to love who they love must stop. The sight of public prosecutions of women trying to help other women have control over their own bodies—other Sarah Ewarts—has to stop.

The Secretary of State may tell me that the Bill is not the right vehicle to address these issues, or that they are all matters for devolution. What she has to tell me is how much longer the people of Northern Ireland will have to wait before their human rights are seen as equally important to the rights of the coalition. I put her on notice: she may not support our amendment, but we will not stop fighting for equality across the whole United Kingdom. I wager that history is on our side, not hers.

[Sir Mike Penning]

I say this with all due respect: I enjoyed the passionate speech of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). I may not have agreed with every word, but frankly I agreed with the vast majority, even though I am a passionate believer in devolution.

I have sat in the Chamber for nearly five hours today, apart from the odd trip to powder my nose. I have intervened on a few Members, but I have made no speeches—I turned up five minutes into Second Reading, too late to speak. That is my fault and no one else’s, but I will try to make up for it now.

I have several points to make about the Bill, but there is one in particular that the hon. Lady might agree with. The first page of the Bill includes a compatibility statement:

“Secretary Karen Bradley has made the following statement under section 19(1)(a) of the Human Rights Act 1998:

In my view the provisions of the Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) (No. 2) Bill are compatible with the Convention rights.”

I am not convinced that the provisions are compatible with convention rights, nor am I convinced that the Bill will do what we were sent here to do. Representation through taxation, the principle that Parliament stands for in this democracy of ours, was set out 900 years ago: we are supposed to look at how the taxpayer’s money is being spent. In passing a Bill because there is no devolved Assembly in Stormont, frankly we are offering a sop to Sinn Féin, which will not participate either in this Chamber or in the Stormont Assembly—that is why it has collapsed.

We cannot say that on the one hand we are willing to pass the Bill, but that on the other hand this is a devolved matter; I think that that is the hon. Lady’s point. This type of Bill will keep coming back—she certainly will. If we believe in devolution, in the Union of this country and in the rights of the people of Northern Ireland to be represented not only here but in their Assembly in Stormont, at some stage we will have to bite the bullet and say that enough is enough. If a political party is not willing to participate, we—the Parliament of the Union of this great nation of ours—will have to step up to the plate and do something about it.

Voyeurism (Offences) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Mike Penning and Stella Creasy

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Wednesday 5th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Stella Creasy]

I will happily give way to a Nottingham MP and then to the right hon. Gentleman, but then I really must make some progress, because I am conscious that other Members want to speak.

[Stella Creasy]

I desperately apologise to the people of Nottinghamshire for forgetting the “Shire”—I am not a fan of “The Lord of the Rings”. I hope the right hon. Lady will forgive me.

[Sir Mike Penning]

As a former Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, I stress that just because the police were not willing to take the matter forward does not mean that an offence has not taken place. This will be driven forward by guidance to the police, particularly from the College of Policing, and by the evidence about what is happening in Nottinghamshire. The offence is there, whether or not we change the wording of the Bill today. Trying to force someone into a car is an offence, and the police should take it seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Stella Creasy

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

We published “Our Commitment to Victims” in September 2014. In addition, I chair the victims panel, and we will bring forward a victims law. On Thursday, I launched TrackMyCrime, which, for the first time, will enable victims to track their crime as it passes through the criminal justice system. Across the House, we should congratulate Avon and Somerset constabulary on piloting and bringing forward this initiative.

[Stella Creasy]

In November, the Minister wrote to me to say that this Government had decided to be “silent” on the rights of murder victims abroad, so that they did not have to do anything to help the families secure justice. The Minister will try to talk about the new directives for victims, but why have the Government been silent about the rights of the British taxpayer Tyrell Matthews-Burton, and yet have spoken up for others?

[Mike Penning]

I have met the hon. Lady, and I know that she is passionate—and quite rightly so—in speaking up for her constituents and victims. As she knows, it is about the definition within the law as it was, and it is no good attacking this Government, because it was exactly the same for the 13 years under the previous Government. We are making the changes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Stella Creasy

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I will not read out the answer I read out earlier when, as is understandable, the hon. Lady was not in her place. I just reiterate that the victims code is a statutory document that places clear duties on criminal justice agencies. The Department will report to the Criminal Justice Board in March 2015. As I said to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), I will keep an enormously close eye on how this is being done, and if we need more powers we will take them. We intend to spend £100 million, which includes a lot of money coming from the perpetrators of such crimes, across all Departments to help victims.

[Stella Creasy]

On 14 January, the Minister’s colleagues in the Foreign Office wrote to me extolling the virtues of having signed the EU directive that means the families of victims of crimes that happen in Europe should expect to be able to enjoy the same rights as they would in their home countries, and on 7 April they wrote to tell me that it is the Minister’s responsibility to make that happen. Will he therefore meet me, my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) and the families involved in the Tyrell Matthews-Burton case? The victim’s family and the witnesses have all been told that they have to raise the funds themselves to be able to go over to Malia to give evidence in this terrible murder trial. I am sure that he would agree that the victim’s voice not being heard is not what we would expect to see at home.

[Mike Penning]

Of course, whether the new Minister or not, I will be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady and her constituents, and the other hon. Lady’s constituents—I think that is the sort of role I should be playing—and look at the case closely, which I have not yet had an opportunity to do.