Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]

Debate between Mike Penning and Caroline Lucas

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

It is an honour and a privilege today to introduce this Bill, which has had extensive scrutiny in its passage through the other place. At the outset, may I thank Her Majesty’s Opposition—the new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), and her predecessors, and the Chief Whip, who has spoken to me extensively about the Bill—for their co-operation? I also thank colleagues from across the House. Sadly, some colleagues in the House are going to oppose this Bill, but, within reason, across the House and across the country we have agreement. I hope that during this short Second Reading debate we will be able to convince those who do not think it is a good thing, because last year 129 people lost their lives in this country because of what they thought was a legal, safe high.

The Bill is a broad piece of legislation, and I freely admit it is new to this House, as we are bringing in a blanket ban. The reason we are doing that is simply that we have been chasing the chemists from around the world for too long. We have attempted to ban 500 substances in this bracket, but then they have tweaked the formulas and the next minute we are back in the same position again.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The Minister has already said that some people in this House, although they do not like psychoactive drugs, do not believe this is the right way of going about legislating on them, not least because similar bans in Ireland led to an increase in the use of these kinds of drugs. Given that that is the case, will he be properly reviewing the implementation of this Bill? If it is put into force and then leads to an increase in online marketing and so forth, will he then repeal it?

[Mike Penning]

I did not expect to be in confrontation with the hon. Lady so early on, but I think, yet again, that she is wrong. I have been to the Republic of Ireland, as well as to Northern Ireland, and not only seen the damage that these psychoactive substances have done, but met Ministers and their chemists. They think their legislation is working, and I agree with them, and New South Wales has implemented similar legislation within the past five days. The rest of the world may not be right, but in this case I think it is. I have looked extensively at this issue, as has the Select Committee on Home Affairs previously—it is doing so again and we are awaiting its report. In the Republic of Ireland the head shops vanished overnight. There are young and old people who thought these drugs were safe. Whether or not we or the scientists like to call them that, they are classed as and felt in the public domain to be legal, safe highs. That is what young people think they are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

My hon. and learned Friend has studied the Bill and I have worked with him on other Bills, so I know exactly where he is coming from. The intent of the Bill is there. The evidence from the Republic of Ireland is that that did not happen, but if we need to tighten the provisions in Committee we can do so; I think there is consensus across the House on that. The head shops closed literally overnight in the Republic of Ireland, and the problem with that type of sale fell through the floor. If we pass the programme motion later this evening, we will be in Committee next week and we can tighten the Bill if consensus allows.

We can go through all the clauses, but I am sure that everybody has read the Bill so in the time available I want to concentrate on two points. First, what is the purpose of the Bill? It is intended to save people’s lives. I completely get where my former right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb)—he is still my friend—is coming from. We might not agree 100% on the method, but let us take the Bill through Committee and let us consider the evidence. I know that there is some other evidence from the Republic of Ireland: I have seen it, I have sat with the scientists and I have sat with the Ministers. Let us see whether we can save lives, bearing in mind the 129 we lost last year. That figure is growing dramatically year on year, which is why there has been a campaign for the Bill for some time.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

If the Irish ban has been so successful, why has the lifetime prevalence of the use of novel psychoactive substances among young people there increased from 16% to 22% in the past three years? Would it not have been sensible to have done an impact assessment of the situation in Ireland before pressing ahead with the Bill?

[Mike Penning]

The answer is no, because I do not want any more deaths, which will happen if we hold back now and wait for more studies, for more this and for more that. New South Wales have done this in the past five days. If I look around the Chamber, I see most people nodding and perhaps one or two people doing otherwise—I do not know how the Hansard reporters will work that out later, but they can try. At the end of the day, I am determined to protect the young and old—

[Caroline Lucas]

Prevalence has gone up.

[Mike Penning]

The hon. Lady shouts across the Chamber from a sedentary position, but she has not brought the Chamber with her—[Interruption.] Yet again she shouts from a sedentary position and, in a moment, when she has the opportunity, she will try to convince the House that she is right.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

I will not give way—actually, I will. Has the hon. Lady been to the Republic of Ireland and spoken to Ministers and scientists?

[Caroline Lucas]

I have not spoken to them directly, but I have evidence in my hand that tells me that the prevalence among young people has increased from 16% to 22% as a result of the ban in Ireland. I am simply asking the Minister why, if the ban is so successful, the prevalence has gone up.

[Mike Penning]

So, the answer to my question was no, and the hon. Lady has not been to the Republic of Ireland and has not spoken to the scientists, but she has a piece of paper in front of her that says that we are all wrong and that she is right. On this point, as usual, I am afraid that she is wrong. At the end of the day, what are we sent to this House to do? It is to protect people, and that is what we will do this evening.

Cannabis

Debate between Mike Penning and Caroline Lucas

Monday 12th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Caroline Lucas]

Brighton, Pavilion.

[Mike Penning]

I apologise. She is the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—my civil servants will be told off later for the notes I was given. I say to her: do not believe everything that Ipsos MORI or any other pollster says. I was supposed to have lost my seat in 2010, but I returned with a majority of 13,000. Pollsters get it wrong; it is about the questioner.

[Caroline Lucas]

indicated dissent.

[Mike Penning]

The hon. Lady can shake her head, but it is a fact that we were not predicted to win the election, yet we did. There are different views about what pollsters say and can measure, but our job is to protect our constituents.

[Caroline Lucas]

I was shaking my head only because the polls are one tiny part of the overall case that I and colleagues have been making. Our case has been about looking at the evidence. I find it shocking to hear from both the Minister and, sadly, the shadow Minister no real interest in looking at the evidence. Yes, we have heard two medically qualified people speak, but there is plenty of medical evidence out there that suggests that, for example, freeing up cannabis for medicinal use is a positive thing to do. Will the Minister undertake to look at the evidence?

[Mike Penning]

I am not certain that the hon. Lady was listening to what I said, but I suggest she read Hansard tomorrow morning. We have cross-party agreement that we will look at research and see how we can help people. I am committed to that, as is the shadow Minister. We will try to do that, but I cannot do it at the Home Office alone; it has to be done across the board. That is the most important thing that can come out of this debate. It is not about who is right and wrong; let us try to work out what can help individuals.

Immigration Statistics

Debate between Mike Penning and Caroline Lucas

Friday 28th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

People who want to come to this country to contribute, work hard and study hard are always welcome. But at the end of the day, there was abuse of the system, and we all know that it was taking place in our constituencies on a regular basis. We will not allow that abuse to continue. That was a key part of the Prime Minister’s speech this morning, and it is very important.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I refer the Minister again to the research published earlier this month by University college London showing that EU migrants paid £20 billion more in taxes than they received in benefits. That means that they are not coming here to claim our benefits. His measures would be counterproductive and nasty. Instead of trying to outdo each other in being as mean as possible to immigrants with all this rhetoric, we should be looking at the root causes. We need more affordable housing. That is the way forward, rather than demonising a particular group in society.

[Mike Penning]

I have 16,000 council houses in my constituency and two areas that are in the top 10 areas of socio-economic deprivation. We need more council houses and the Conservative local authority is now building them again, but I do not want them filled with people who come here—until they have been here for at least four years. We have enough of a waiting list already in my constituency and in other constituencies around the country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mike Penning and Caroline Lucas

Thursday 17th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

My hon. Friend knows that I am personally aware of the problems at the Dartford crossing, having used it for many years. The £40 million net that we recover from the crossing is a significant income, but we need to consider technology that is being used in other parts of the world, particularly in Australia, so that we can remove the barriers and increase the speed at which traffic comes through while also picking up the revenue that the country desperately needs.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

3. What information his Department holds on the effect of industrial action involving airlines on the number of passengers on flights operated by those airlines.