Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting)

Michael Payne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are now in public session and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any hon. Members wish to declare interests that are pertinent to the Bill?

[Michael Payne (Gedling) (Lab)]

I would like to declare an interest as a member of both Nottinghamshire county council and Gedling borough council, which are both responsible for administering benefits.

[Michelle Welsh (Sherwood Forest) (Lab)]

Mine is exactly the same: I am a member of Gedling borough council and Nottinghamshire county council, which have responsibility for administering benefits.

--- Later in debate ---

[Siân Berry]

Q Were those last two comments more about the effectiveness of the legislation?

Alex Rothwell: Yes.

[Michael Payne]

Q Thank you both for sharing your experience and expertise with us this morning. It is estimated that there was about £5.4 billion-worth of fraud and error in temporary covid-19 schemes that were not run by HMRC. You will know that this is an area of significant public interest. The Public Accounts Committee said:

“It is very unlikely that most of the losses due to fraud and corruption”

during the pandemic

“will ever be recovered.”

How far do you agree with that statement? Do you think the new powers for the Public Sector Fraud Authority change the prospects?

Alex Rothwell: I absolutely do think they change those prospects. I was still in law enforcement when covid-19 was happening, and there was an extensive discussion about the police’s ability to support investigations. Frankly, policing had significant challenges with fraud, and still does, in terms of the volume of attacks against individuals and businesses, which made supporting the public sector almost an impossible ask, so I certainly welcome the ability to strengthen the public sector fraud response.

On whether the money will be recovered, there are significant challenges, as I am sure you are aware. It is right to apply a cost-benefit approach as well; although there is a moral imperative, we increasingly look at things in a commercial sense and at whether there is financial value in recovering funds.

Kristin Jones: It is very difficult to get money back from fraudsters, especially where it is organised, because the money disappears into different accounts in different names, and overseas through lots of corporate bodies, so it will be a big challenge. The important thing about this piece of legislation is whether we are future-proofing it so that, looking forward, we can learn from what has happened in the past and not repeat the mistakes.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q I am particularly interested in the work that the NHS serious fraud team is already doing. What specific challenges do you currently face in investigating fraud and recovering money that the Bill will help? Do you think there are gaps in what is being proposed that could be tweaked or amended?

Alex Rothwell: If we take the view that fraud has already happened—I have spoken about prevention, but once a fraud has happened and we have discovered it—there are increasingly limited opportunities to pursue criminal investigations. Although we maintain a strong investigative capability that deals with more serious types of criminality, we know about the challenges in the criminal justice system—the disclosure burden is high, it is incredibly expensive to run criminal investigations, and often they take eight years or longer to reach fruition—so we are increasingly looking at how else we can deal with fraud when it is presented to us.

In many ways, it is the low-value, high-volume cases that we see that are more challenging, where we are perhaps seeking to recover funds from someone who has taken £5,000, as I mentioned earlier. This is where I have the most interest in the Bill, because I think we would seek to use those powers extensively, and of course every penny that we recover is money that will be well spent in the NHS. I do not necessarily see any gaps in this particular legislation. There are elements of the work that we do in the national health service where we would benefit from some more powers, but the focus here is obviously on the Bill, rather than on our own ability. A lot of that would apply to how we access medical records, for example.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (Second sitting)

Michael Payne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Western]

Q I suspect Minister Gould will have the bulk of the questions for you, Mark, but I have a very general question. There has, understandably, been a lot of discussion and questions today about the balance between people’s privacy and being able to prevent fraud. What is your overall view on whether the Bill strikes the necessary balance between the two?

Mark Cheeseman: My view is that the Bill does strike that balance, and it tries to strike the balance. It is difficult, because you need to balance the ability to take action against someone who has committed fraud against the state with having fair and reasonable processes for looking at someone who has not. The purpose of an investigation is not to find fraud; it is to find fact. That is why we have professionals who are trained and have a code of ethics around objectivity; their role is to find fact, not fraud. The Bill tries to strike that balance both by having authorised officers and by having the oversight that is in place. The Government structure, in having the counter-fraud profession, provides some of that as well. My view of the Bill is that there is a fair amount of independent oversight—that is a good thing—to increase how well things are done.

[Michael Payne (Gedling) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for being with us, Mr Cheeseman. The National Audit Office put the amount of fraud and error outside the tax and benefits system at between £5 billion and £30 billion in 2023-24 alone. I wondered what your assessment, and the PSFA’s, is of the quantum of fraud against the public sector. Will you share a bit more about that with the Committee?

Mark Cheeseman: Of course. When we estimate fraud, we estimate fraud and error, as the NAO has done. The NAO used the methodology that we have used previously. We have not repeated that yet, because it has gone ahead of us in the cycle. I have no reason to indicate that its estimate is incorrect, but that is its estimate, and Joshua was here earlier.

We estimate fraud and error as a whole, rather than fraud separately, but what we have seen in the fraud data is that detected fraud in the public sector has risen over the past few years. We have published that. Some was due to covid, but some is in other spaces. Earlier witnesses indicated that the threat has risen and that there are some changes in the perception of fraud and of how people may approach it.

My perspective is that the level of fraud and error in the system is high. There is waste there, and Parliament itself has challenged the Government on what more they can do to deal with it. The threat is rising, and therefore in my position, I think that the powers will help to take action on that. There is more to do to drive down waste and to reduce fraud in the system.

[Michael Payne]

Q Throughout the previous witness sessions, there have been questions about concerns with respect to training for PSFA enforcement officers. I wondered whether you wanted to say anything more than you have already to the Committee about training for enforcement officers.

Mark Cheeseman: I will come back to what I said about the counter-fraud profession. We are one of the only countries in the world with professional standards published. Those are used by the police, the Serious Fraud Office and HMRC. They use these types of powers successfully on a regular basis. We would have exactly the same standard of investigator—both by bringing them in and by training them up to those standards—who would use these powers if and when they are in place.

[Georgia Gould]

Q I want to build on the earlier line of questioning about Ministers’ sign-off. My under-standing is that the powers will be delegated to authorised officers and there will be no ministerial sign-off on any part of the investigation. That will rightly be separate. I think it would be helpful if you could clarify how that will work in practice.

Mark Cheeseman: Yes. Apologies—that was a slip when I answered earlier. Yes, the powers of the Minister—it is written as “the Minister” in the Bill—are delegated to authorised officers, who sit in the PSFA. They would be qualified to the standards of the profession, and they would be taking the decision. What I was referring to earlier is that any review decision, if someone asked for a review, would be taken by a separate authorised officer. There are a number of provisions in the Bill to enable people within the process to make an information-gathering request or to ask for something else to be reviewed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gill German (Clwyd North) (Lab)]

Q We heard earlier from Anna from the Money and Pensions Service, who believes that the relationship between the service and the DWP is good. She said that a link has been established with Jobcentre Plus advisers to make sure that people are referred for advice to do with debts if needed. How important is that kind of person-centred approach in the practical application of the Bill, particularly in the case of error and the preventive measures we have spoken about—the wraparound care so that people do not get into problems with error much further down the line?

Andrew Western: As I have highlighted in my questions to witnesses throughout the day, there is the potential, through the eligibility verification measure, for a number of overpayments to be detected earlier than they would have been otherwise, thereby avoiding the large numbers that we have seen people rack up in overpayments through, for instance, the carer’s allowance challenges that we have seen in recent years.

The breadth of the conversation we are looking to have with people who are in debt with the Department is significant. We heard about the MoneyHelper service, on which the Money and Pensions Service works with us. That is just one of a range of organisations and packages that we utilise to support people who are in debt. We know that, whatever the reason—whether it is fraud or error, but particularly, as you say, if it is error—it is an incredibly stressful time for people.

In debt recovery terms, the power that we are taking is intended to be a power of last resort. What we always want to do, having been through all the things that you would expect us to do—the vulnerability management framework that was referenced earlier and the assessment that we make of people’s ability to pay—is to agree an affordable repayment plan. By the time we reach the point where we are looking for a direct deduction order, we would have looked to engage somebody on multiple occasions, contacting them several times and trying to agree that plan. This is for people we have no other means of engaging. It is as much a lever to try to bring them to the table and have the sorts of conversations you referenced as anything else.

This is also about addressing the existing fundamental unfairness. We can directly deduct from somebody in receipt of benefits, by deducting from that benefit entitlement, and we can do the same for someone in pay-as-you-earn employment, but we do not have that opportunity for people in receipt of income through other means—most obviously, but not exclusively, self-employed people. There is a fundamental point about addressing that inequity in the system. Having made those financial assessments, we know that these are people who can afford to pay. We have tried to reach out with the wraparound support that you suggested, and ultimately, they continue to refuse to engage.

[Michael Payne]

Q There has been some discussion today about the use of technology and AI. As Ministers, what are you doing to ensure that humans still take the final decisions on whether the powers should lead to enforcement?

Andrew Western: As it relates to the DWP—I do not know whether you want to say anything about the PFSA powers later, Georgia—it is worth reflecting that the proposed eligibility verification power is in effect a data-push power. The banks will not make any decisions as to someone’s culpability, on what penalty they might receive, or on whether the overpayment flagged on the account is legitimate; all the banks will do is send back a marker against an account to suggest that someone is in breach of their eligibility requirements.

For example, that might include someone who has more than £16,000 in their account, but is in receipt of universal credit. It is important to say that the flag is then passed to a human investigator to analyse the information and look at what the reasons may be, because there can be very legitimate reasons why someone has more than £16,000 in their account and is still entitled to benefits, such as someone who has received a compensation payment that is out of scope of what would be considered capital for benefit-eligibility reasons.

In all the five principal measures on the DWP side of the Bill, a human is involved in the decision making: on eligibility verification, it is passed to an investigator; on information gathering, when we receive information, it is passed to an investigator to consider the next steps in a fraud investigation; on debt recovery, an individual—a person—would make a decision as to someone’s ability to repay a debt; and on penalties reform as proposed, a human will determine what actions will be taken against a person who received a penalty for fraud against a DWP grant scheme. That is entirely the way that it works with any other penalty that can already be applied. Finally, on the powers of search and seizure, as we would expect, a human judge will take a decision on whether to issue a warrant. At every stage, a human decision maker is baked in before any final decision on sanction or otherwise.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q I will ask one question in a second, but I wanted to come back on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire made about the code of practice. The Minister has said that each time in our scrutiny we get to a point in the Bill that relates to a bit of the code of practice, he will bring that to us then and we can discuss it. Will that be in writing? It strikes me that if something is there for us to discuss at a particular point, it would make much better sense to have discussed it all at the beginning, so that we can look at it as a whole. Otherwise, I am not quite sure how we will do it in debate.

Andrew Western: A draft code of practice will not be available at that stage, so I will speak in general terms about what we intend to include, but there will not be a written document at that stage.