Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Debate between Michael Moore and John Redwood

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I certainly think that any attempt to create grievance about the process goes against the grain of what we understand to be the SNP’s willingness to be a full participant in the process. I believe, however, that John Swinney and Linda Fabiani will enter into their work with the commission in the right spirit and that they will be determined to work with others and respect the outcome of the referendum, which made it clear that Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom.

The different parties debated and set out their proposals for what they seek from the commission, according to the different principles that Lord Smith asked for, by the end of last week. It is important that we should adopt those principles, so that we can have a Parliament with the maximum range of powers to fulfil our ambitions for it. Those ambitions include an ability for the Scottish Parliament to raise more than half the money that it spends, while retaining at UK level sufficient fiscal capability and responsibility to allow the UK Parliament, and all the MPs who are part of it, to perform the functions that are best secured across the whole UK, including defence, the provision of a unified international presence, fiscal transfers and solidarity, social protection and equity, and the macro-economic foundations of our economy.

It is important that we entrench the Scottish Parliament to make it clear that there is no danger of its ever being taken away, which would be a political disaster. Now is a good moment to entrench it in the United Kingdom constitution. We must ensure that we maintain what is valuable about the United Kingdom, what people have argued and fought passionately for over the past three years, including the single market for businesses and a single welfare system whose core elements are available across the whole UK.

There is another dimension to this, which has formed part of the debate in England and in Scotland. Although it is not part of his official remit, I hope that Lord Smith will look hard at the issue of local devolution in Scotland, because the cries for decentralisation within Scotland are every bit as strong there as they are here.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as we wish Scotland to have substantial tax-raising powers in its own right, it would be quite wrong for Scottish MPs to vote on taxes for England or the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Michael Moore]

I shall come back to the issue of English votes for English laws in a moment.

I believe that there is a lot of support across Scotland for a modern Scotland within a reformed United Kingdom, and it is important that we should be serious about that reformed United Kingdom as well. Let us look at the inner workings of the United Kingdom, and particularly at the civil service. I am proud to have worked with some immensely talented people in the Scotland Office, the Cabinet Office, the Treasury and elsewhere. I saw for myself what could be achieved when people put their minds to working together in common cause. I saw the limitations as well, however. I saw the hollowing out of the United Kingdom Government’s presence and capacity in Scotland and, at times, a lack of understanding and sclerotic responses.

I plead for forgiveness for previously arguing for the abolition of the Scotland Office. I confess that I did that when I believed that the rest of the United Kingdom Government had a strong presence north of the border. Three and a half years in the Scotland Office disabused me of that notion. However, the resources, the policy-making capability and the stakeholder engagement in Scotland improved substantially in response to the referendum campaign. We must seize the moment and ensure that there is a step-change in Scotland on the back of that. We must not go back to the old days.

We must also look afresh at how we resolve disputes within the United Kingdom. We need greater openness and engagement in the joint ministerial Committees, and quicker resolution of disputes before they are elevated to constitutional crisis level. All of that is about more openness and a greater understanding of what is done in people’s names across the length and breadth of the United Kingdom.

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Debate between Michael Moore and John Redwood

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I entirely agree with what the hon. Lady has just said about the need for us get on with the debate, and to ensure that the Scottish people and Scottish interests, not the interests of politicians in different political parties, are at the heart of it.

I am delighted to confirm that—as the hon. Lady will see if she reads the consultation paper, and as is clear from the fact that I made the statement today—I will lead for the Government, working with all my colleagues.

As I acknowledged in my statement, the Scottish National party secured an important victory in the elections last year. It had set out its clear intention of holding a referendum, but what was not so clear was how it would do that. As I have said, we believe the legal position to be that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to conduct any kind of referendum, and it is therefore important for us to work with the Scottish Government to ensure that we can get on with this historic decision.

The hon. Lady asked how we would consult. The consultation document offers people throughout Scotland the opportunity to write and involve themselves in the process. I will of course be going out and about in Scotland myself, and I am sure that many others will also involve themselves in the debate. It is important that everyone in Scotland is able to feel part of the process.

The hon. Lady will be aware of the ministerial code and the convention followed by successive Governments that legal advice is neither acknowledged nor published. However, I ask her to look carefully at the consultation document and to note the authority that we are bringing to bear, namely sections 29 and 30 and, in particular, schedule 5 of the Scotland Act. I believe that careful examination of those documents will lead to only one clear conclusion: that there is no legal authority for any referendum. We must ensure that that issue is resolved.

The hon. Lady asked whether I, like her, support a simple, straightforward yes-no question on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. That is indeed what we are recommending. As for the issue of oversight, I think it entirely fair and reasonable for the process of a referendum to be overseen by a body that has widespread experience, is neutral, and is seen to be above and beyond the fray. The Electoral Commission seems to me to fit the bill, but I look forward to hearing the reactions of others during the consultation.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

What do the Government propose should happen to the shared debts and the shared membership of the European Union were Scotland to leave the Union?

[Michael Moore]

The right hon. Gentleman asks an important question. I am sure that it is one of many that will be at the heart of the debate about Scotland’s future when we come to the referendum itself, but for now I want to ensure that we can get on with the proper substantive debate.