Home Affairs and Justice

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Thursday 28th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Michael Gove)]

Let me begin by congratulating you, Mr Speaker, on your re-election in the constituency of Buckingham with an increased majority, and on your re-election as Speaker. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) on his increased majority. Over the last 12 months, I have made many —sadly unsuccessful—visits to his constituency, but not for the purpose of canvassing for the Conservative party; I was visiting Loftus Road to watch Queen’s Park Rangers play. The relegation of Queen’s Park Rangers last month was one piece of bad news, but it was, of course, mitigated by the good news of the election of a majority Conservative Government for the first time since 1992. Let me add that while I have occasionally enjoyed 90 minutes of pain at Loftus Road, I think we would all agree that the last five hours of debate have been of a conspicuously high standard. If debate in this House for the remainder of the five years of this fixed-term Parliament matches the standard of the debate we have heard today, this will go down as one of the best Parliaments in the history of the House of Commons.

May I particularly emphasise how impressed I was, and I know many colleagues were too, by the speeches of new Members, and I want to turn to some of those maiden speeches in a moment. However, as well as celebrating the excellent speeches by newly elected Members, may I acknowledge our gratitude to those Members who have departed this House? When we are considering home affairs issues, it is only fair to acknowledge that distinguished Home Secretaries like David Blunkett and Jack Straw are no longer in this House. Their contribution to our national debate on home affairs and justice matters has always been of the highest standard. Others who have stood down, including my former colleague Sir George Young and Sir Menzies Campbell QC, also augmented our debates in this place. I also want to say on a personal level that there were three Members who sought re-election but failed whom I have enjoyed debating with in this House and whose absence from it diminishes it as a place of debate. They are, of course, Ed Balls, former Member for Morley and Outwood, David Laws, former Member for Yeovil, and Charles Kennedy, former Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. All three of them were distinguished parliamentarians and public servants of great ability. I hope they can continue to contribute to the life of this country. They still have a great deal to offer.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) on his maiden speech. His affection for his constituency was transparent in his every word, and I know he will be a diligent and effective constituency Member. He spoke from the heart and effectively on behalf of his constituents. I look forward to hearing him again in our future debates.

I also congratulate the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) on his maiden speech, delivered without notes and with great fluency. He is a highly accomplished barrister and the biographer of Clement Attlee and Aneurin Bevan, a combination of skills and talents that will add significantly to our future debates.

The hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) enjoyed 12 minutes of uninterrupted speech in this place. I hope there will be many other opportunities for us to hear him, when we may perhaps have occasion to interrupt him to tease out the wisdom behind his remarks. I very much enjoyed his speech, both the analysis of the strengths and deficiencies of Magna Carta and the passion he showed in defence of human rights as a way of safeguarding the interests of his constituents, many of whom are among the poorest in our capital and our country. They will have an effective advocate in him.

I also congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) and say, as a fellow working parent, that it is good to have the hon. Lady in the House. Her speech was an effective, passionate and powerful plea on behalf of many of those who are sometimes forgotten in this place and by those of us who exercise Executive and administrative power. One of the good things my predecessor as Lord Chancellor did was widen the evidence criteria to ensure that more women in domestic violence cases were able to enjoy access to legal aid. He also ensured that specialist rape centres were funded more generously than before. It is only fair that we acknowledge that he, working with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, made significant strides forward, ensuring that violence against women and girls was treated with the seriousness it deserves.

I also congratulate with a particular sense of enjoyment my new hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay). There were moments when all of us may have felt saddened on the evening of 7 May and the morning of 8 May. There were also moments when many of us felt a sense of jubilation. I say with malice towards none that I felt particular joy to see his smile as he was elected the Member of Parliament for South Thanet. I had the privilege of campaigning alongside him during the general election campaign. I know he lost more than a stone and a half during that campaign. His exertions on behalf of his constituents were rewarded with a healthy majority and I know that during the next five years he will be a highly effective advocate for the people of that beautiful part of Kent.

We also had three very good maiden speeches from new Members elected for the Scottish National party. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard). He spoke fluently and passionately without notes. As a graduate of Aberdeen University, I would have expected no less of him. The way in which he combined a determined and from-the-heart appeal on behalf of his constituents with respect for the traditions of this place and for other parties, was hugely impressive. His experience not just in politics but in the world of entertainment will stand him in good stead here. He is the proprietor of The Stand comedy club in Edinburgh, and there is no better preparation for Westminster than watching a succession of jokers try to woo a difficult audience.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) on his maiden speech. He styled himself a poor crofter, and his commitment to crofting and crofting families is second to none. However, I think there are very few crofters, even on the Isle of Skye, who spent 20 years as an investment banker with Deutsche Bank, but I am sure that that special combination of abilities will make him a voice that we will all want to pay close attention to.

I also congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) on her very impressive maiden speech. She is a member of the Faculty of Advocates, and as she pointed out, Edinburgh South West, whether in the Scottish Parliament or here at Westminster, has been very lucky in having a string of distinguished lawyers from three parties to represent it. I also thank her for her commitment to bring to bear not just legal experience, but a proper sense of the balance between the place of the law and the place of Parliaments in deciding on our human rights. I hope that Scottish National party MPs will not take it amiss if I observe that recently the Justice Minister at Holyrood had occasion to reverse a position where his predecessor had sought to lower the evidential barrier for the admission of particular cases. The fact that there was a U-turn was a welcome sign that in every Parliament, if we listen to the public and pay close attention to their concerns, we can ensure that the vulnerable are better protected. The hon. and learned Lady’s voice will be a valuable one in making sure that our deliberations on justice matters are enhanced and stronger.

We also had a succession of very impressive speeches from experienced Members, including the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). I join my voice to his in congratulating the many members of black and minority ethnic communities in this House, which is now in every sense more diverse than it has ever been. That is all to the good, and his role in acting as a champion of greater diversity at every level of public and commercial life is one of the many assets that he brings to his role.

I also thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) for his speech, and the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) and the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). The warning from the hon. Lady of the dangers of nationalism taken to excess had many heads nodding throughout the Chamber, and, while we may not always agree on the to and fro of legislation, I absolutely applaud her commitment to making sure that when we think about making decisions in this House we try always to reconcile rather than to divide communities.

There were a number of very accomplished speeches by Government Back Benchers, who have the weight of considerable experience. My hon. Friends the Members for Poole (Mr Syms) and for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), my right hon. Friends the Members for Ashford (Damian Green) and for North Somerset (Dr Fox), my hon. Friends the Members for Bedford (Richard Fuller) and for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) all made excellent speeches. The warnings from my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset about the importance of maintaining vigilance in foreign affairs, the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford made about sensitivity in immigration, and the points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden made about the importance of recognising that parliamentary sovereignty is the key to safeguarding our freedoms were all well received.

When the Home Secretary opened this debate, she outlined a significant range of measures, all of which are designed to enhance the security of citizens throughout the United Kingdom. This Home Secretary has been the most accomplished and successful in ensuring that we can put in place a suite of anti-terrorist and anti-extremist measures that deal with the single greatest threat to our way of life, to our security and to our freedoms. That, of course, is Islamist extremism. This Home Secretary has been responsible for the eviction of more hate preachers, and for a more determined and energetic pursuit not just of violent extremism, but of non-violent extremism and the ideology that ultimately gives rise to hatred and division in our communities. I take this opportunity not just to applaud her on her efforts in the past, but to say that the measures she is bringing forward today will I am sure go further than perhaps any other western nation has in making sure we can deal with the threat of extremism and, in particular, the vile ideology of hate which so many who twist the proud religion of Islam unfortunately have sought to propagate on our streets and in other countries.

The measures to bring forward legislation to deal with psychoactive drugs respond, as many speakers in the House have pointed out, to a widespread concern shared by many communities and many parents. It is important that we recognise that we need to maintain our vigilance against those drugs that are already illegal, which can have a devastating effect on young lives, but a number of substances that are currently legal can warp and ruin the lives of young people, and I know that the legislation the Home Secretary is going to bring in will be welcomed across the House.

I should also say that the Home Secretary’s measures to better control immigration will be vital in making sure that we can bolster and maintain public confidence in the security of our borders. I know that there was some criticism from the shadow Home Secretary of our record on immigration. The Home Secretary and I would be the first to concede that there is more to be done, which is why we are bringing a measure forward, but—I wonder how I should put it; it is not hypocritical or disingenuous—there is an element of chutzpah, to borrow a word from those on the Scottish National party Benches, in the Labour party criticising any other party for laxity on immigration and a failure to control our borders.

On police and criminal justice matters, it is fair to acknowledge that this Home Secretary is bringing forward an enlightened, liberal and progressive police and criminal justice Bill. She will ensure that those who have mental health problems—a significant number in our society—do not find themselves in a police cell, as that is a wholly unsuitable place for those suffering mental health problems to find themselves; police misconduct will also be better pursued and better investigated than ever before, so that individual citizens who may have been on the receiving end of police misconduct are better protected; the extension of freedom of information to the Police Federation will ensure that we are in a stronger position to safeguard the rights of individuals against corporate interests; and the review of the laws governing how professionals operate towards children in their care should ensure that the most vulnerable, who should always be at the forefront of our minds, will be better protected.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Before we leave the subject of drugs too far behind, may I say that, although it is not my habit to praise the Conservative Government, or even their Queen’s Speeches, I think that the commitment to addressing the problem of psychoactive drugs is extremely important? I appreciate that this is slightly outside the Minister’s brief and may be more towards the brief of the Home Secretary, who is sitting next to him, but may we also examine the aspects around the taking of drugs? Nitrous oxide, and other such things, may not appear on the list, but it does create an appalling antisocial crisis on our streets at the moment—it certainly does in my constituency. So I welcome the inclusion and forgive me for saying, be it chutzpah or not, that I would like to see it extended not just to defining the chemical, but to addressing the issues around it.

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Many of us will have read in the newspapers recently about the way in which the use of nitrous oxide, so-called “hippy crack”, has led to some very unhappy consequences. The legislation we are going to introduce will look at the specific effects that chemicals have on individuals, so there will be an opportunity to deal with the menace that he identifies.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) lamented the fact that there was no legislation specifically to deal with prisons or the problems that we face in our courts system. I will be honest: although I would not use the word “crisis”, there are difficult issues to be addressed in our prison estate and in our courts. That is why I am so very grateful that Sir Brian Leveson has produced an outstanding report on what we may be able to do to improve the operation of our courts system. I look forward to working with the judiciary and Members across this House to ensure that justice is fairer and faster.

We do need to address a number of problems in our prisons to ensure that they become places of rehabilitation as well as incarceration. Some steps that were taken by my predecessor to help transform rehabilitation are a very promising way forward, but we should also take this opportunity to pay tribute to the prison governors, the prison officers and, above all, the chief executive of the National Offender Management Service, Michael Spurr. Those dedicated public servants do an outstanding job, not just in making us all safe, but in trying to ensure that individuals have a chance at redemption and a second chance in their lives.

Of course, in the shadow Home Secretary’s speech, and in some of the comments from other Opposition Members, we heard rhetoric on human rights that, if they will forgive me for saying so, was ever so slightly overblown. In Dickens’ “The Pickwick Papers” there is a character called “the Fat Boy” who

“wants to make your flesh creep.”

I did think that there was an element of the lurid in the description of what would happen if we were to tamper in any way with the Human Rights Act. To listen to Labour Members at some points one would have thought that prior to 1998 this country was a lawless wasteland in which the innocent were put to the sword and no one had any recourse to justice, and that after 1998 we entered a land where the rule of law was at last respected, after decades, if not centuries, of arbitrary rule. Although that depiction might go down well at a Labour constituency fund-raising function or indeed on the leadership hustings of that party, it is not appropriate to indulge in that sort of rhetoric when discussing important issues such as the balance between liberty and parliamentary sovereignty.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Monday 18th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I do not wish to distract the House in celebration of today’s birthday of one of our greatest living poets, Sir Paul McCartney. However, may I say that the Secretary of State is no stranger to the Twyford Church of England high school in Acton, which is well known for its inspirational head teacher? An insanitary cordon of fast food outlets rings that school, selling congealed, deep-fried lumps of mechanically extruded neo-chicken sludge, thus fatally undermining any attempt at a healthy eating regime. Will he speak to his colleague in the Department for Communities and Local Government to consider whether any linkage can be brought to prevent those foul premises from springing up around some of our better schools?

[Michael Gove]

My message can be summed up in six letters: KFC UFO. [Interruption.]

New Schools

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Monday 10th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I can provide exactly that assurance.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

May I assume from the subtle suggestiveness of the Secretary of State’s reply to the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) that the inspirational Alice Hudson of Twyford high school has been successful in the proposals regarding north Greenford? The question I wished to ask before that matter was raised was whether he will answer the question I asked him in writing two months ago about whether teachers and head teachers in free schools will be subject to public sector pay controls.

[Michael Gove]

Yes and no.

[Stephen Pound]

In which order?

[Michael Gove]

In that order.

Education Bill

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

They certainly did! The hon. Gentleman should listen, because he fails to appreciate that schools such as Mossbourne academy have head teachers who recognise that every child deserves an academic education. He can sneer if he likes, but if those 10 children had been in a school where he was the head teacher, they would not have had the opportunity to go to Cambridge. He would have said to them, “I’m terribly sorry, but it’s not for the likes of you.” He would have said of their studying academic subjects, “I’m terribly sorry, you’re not good enough.” It is that culture of “know your place”, of enforced mediocrity and of denying opportunity and aspiration that the Bill directly challenges.

The reason that there is so much discomfort among those on the Labour Front Bench is that they have been rumbled. They pose as meritocrats, but in fact, whenever an educational change comes about that tells people from disadvantaged backgrounds that they can achieve far more than they ever imagined, they say, “Oh no, we don’t want that. We don’t like it. It’s inappropriate.” For that reason, the unrepentant and unreformed socialists who form an increasing part of the representation on the Labour Benches object. It will be interesting to see whether every Labour Member votes against the Bill tonight, or whether some are sufficiently enlightened and reformist to see merit in the proposals and in aspiration, and to join us in supporting it.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Michael Gove]

I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman, whom I would never accuse of being unrepentant or unreformed.

[Stephen Pound]

I am really not too sure how to take that, particularly as the right hon. Gentleman is now taking provocation to previously unimagined heights. He is rocketing down that pathway at breakneck speed, but I hope he will forgive me for taking him back to the point made by the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). Does he agree that religious education is an absolutely core part of the curriculum? When he comes to consider, say, an English baccalaureate, will he recognise the significance, importance and vital nature of religious education as the core of the curriculum in our schools?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman’s own saintly behaviour while he has been in the House of Commons is an advertisement not only for religious education but for the religious education offered by the Roman Catholic Church, of which he is such a distinguished ornament—[Laughter.] He is certainly venerable, and he might be blessed and, one day, perhaps, saintly, but at the moment we will settle for ornamental. He is both ornament and use. He is formidably well informed; I know from our previous exchanges in Committee that he knows every single member of the Aberdeen team that won the European cup winners cup in Gothenburg in 1982—[Interruption.] My dad was there, as a matter of fact. [Interruption.] I am grateful. We Aberdeen fans need all the support we can get at times like this. I was going to say to the hon. Gentleman that he is misinformed on this particular point, because religious education is in the curriculum. It is a compulsory subject. Moreover, the English baccalaureate is not a compulsory measure; it is simply a performance measure that will allow us to see how many students have access to five core academic subjects. The sad fact is that only 16% of students succeeded in securing the mix of subjects that make the English baccalaureate, when every other developed country demands that its students have that suite of qualifications at 15, 16 or 17. This is another example of our falling behind.

The case for reform, as I have mentioned, is one that many Labour Members might be tempted to support. One reason they may be tempted to support it is that they will see that progressive figures from across the world are moving in the same direction as this Government. Just two weeks ago, we were privileged to have visiting the UK Mike Feinberg, the founder of the Knowledge is Power Program set of schools.

Mike Feinberg used to be an intern for Senator Paul Simon, Barack Obama’s predecessor as Senator for Illinois. Mike Feinberg, a career Democrat, was here to support our free school programme. He was joined by Joel Klein, a former Assistant Attorney-General in the Clinton Administration, and was also here to support our free school programme. They followed Arne Duncan, Barack Obama’s Education Secretary, who also came here to back our free school programme. Our free school programme has also been backed by Conor Ryan, an adviser to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough and to the former Prime Minister. He described the Labour party’s opposition to our proposals as “ridiculous”.

Conor Ryan is not a lone voice. He has been joined by Andrew Adonis, who described 400 academies as “a phenomenal achievement”. He said:

“Neither I nor Tony Blair believed that academies should be restricted to areas with failing schools. We wanted all schools to be eligible for academy status, and we were enthusiastic about the idea of entirely new schools being established on the academy model, as in Michael Gove’s Free Schools policy.”

It is not just a matter of what Conor Ryan and Andrew Adonis said, as I shall cite what Tony Blair himself said:

“In many areas of… policy, the Tories will be at their best when they are allowed to get on with it—as with reforms in education”.

I have a question for every Opposition Member: are they going to listen to the reformist Prime Minister who secured them three election victories, or are they going to go back to the atavistic class warrior instincts that will lead them to oppose this Bill? Tony Blair in his memoirs also pointed out that when a reformist Government are in power, it is very easy for an Opposition to oppose. He went on to say that when there are reforms like ours, the Opposition should support them, but he pointed out that Oppositions tend to get

“dragged almost unconsciously, almost unwillingly into wholesale opposition. It’s where the short-term market in votes is. It is where the party feels most comfortable. It’s what gets the biggest cheer. The trouble is it also chains the Opposition to positions that in the longer term look irresponsible, short-sighted, just plain wrong.”

That is Tony Blair’s verdict on the opposition of the current official Opposition Front-Bench team to this Bill—“irresponsible, short-sighted” and “just plain wrong”.

Academies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Monday 19th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend mentions the big society. I was asked earlier today on Radio 5 Live, “What is the big society?” and an image of him came to my mind. In many respects, he sums up the big society. He is not only an exemplary legislator, but a dedicated citizen activist who has always put Colchester first and last. I believe that he will be able—I know this from our informal conversations—to use the legislation to ensure that schools in his part of the world can acquire academy status, with an equal number of parent governors and other governors, thus providing him with the sort of model that, I am sure, he will press other hon. Members across the House to emulate.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Before the right hon. Gentleman completely rewrites the front pages of every newspaper in Colchester tomorrow, may I return him to CTCs? Can he tell us how many CTCs teach creationism as an integral part of the curriculum? Does he feel that the number is too many, too few or just about right?

[Michael Gove]

The number is zero, which is just about right. It has often been alleged that, for example, Gateshead Emmanuel CTC teaches creationism as part of the science curriculum. Having visited that school, I know that it does not. I can tell anyone who is a critic of CTCs or academies that the cure for such cynicism is to visit them. It used to be said that the cure for anyone who admired the House of Lords too much was to visit it. Having visited the House of Lords during its deliberations on the Bill, I am full of admiration for the way in which it was debated there and for the many Liberal Democrat colleagues who helped to improve it. To anyone who wants to see how our schools can be improved, I recommend visiting academies such as Mossbourne community academy in Hackney, with 84% of children getting five good GCSEs; Burlington Danes academy in Hammersmith, where a school that was in special measures now has more than half its children getting five good GCSEs; Manchester academy, where Kathy August, on behalf of the United Learning Trust, has taken a school in which only 6% of students got five good GCSEs to a point where 35% do so now—all great successes, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman will want to applaud.

Schools Funding

Debate between Michael Gove and Stephen Pound

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his dignified statement, and I have a deal of sympathy for him, but may I ask for a little more than sympathy for the people of Cardinal Wiseman high school in my constituency, who have been told that their case for a rebuild under BSF is under further discussion as a sample school? Can he give the House some indication of when he will make a decision on that, because they desperately need to know the facts?

[Michael Gove]

Ealing is one of those local authorities in that stage prior to financial close called close of dialogue. As the hon. Gentleman quite rightly points out, several schools in each of those local authority areas are called sample schools. Those schools are thought to be in the most urgent need. For that reason, we wish to do everything possible to try to ensure that they will receive funding as quickly as possible. As I mentioned in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), I hope to be able to provide clarity by the time the House rises for the summer recess.