Safeguarding and Clergy Discipline Measure DIOCESAN STIPENDS FUNDS (AMENDMENT) MEASURE

Melanie Onn Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2016 General Committees

[Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Hanson.

I thank the Second Church Estates Commissioner for giving me advance sight of her comments today. That is not usually a courtesy extended to the Opposition in Delegated Legislation Committees, but for an important and rarely examined matter such as the Measures before us it was particularly helpful to my scrutiny.

Safeguarding is a vital issue. We agree with the right hon. Lady that the provisions in the Measure are an important step in safeguarding children and vulnerable people, which must be our primary consideration, in addition to restoration of the public’s confidence in the Church to manage its organisation in a manner that reflects their concerns.

I am minded to support the Measures, in particular in the light of the right hon. Lady’s comments about the Ecclesiastical Committee and collective agreement, but I have some concerns and questions. Some matters have also been raised in interventions and I will address those shortly.

The right hon. Lady said that the Measure had unanimous support in the General Synod. It comes at an important time, because we have reached an important moment in society after many years when victims felt that they were unable to report their experiences or to speak out against the people who had abused them, in particular if those people held positions of societal importance or were shown deference. Finally, people are rightly no longer restricted by such conventions and are coming forward to report.

The specific provisions in the Measure to dissuade and discourage individuals from engaging in certain actions are important. People should understand that there will be serious repercussions. The Measure is a positive step, because it means that victims may seek justice and we will be able to bring the abusers to justice. Also, importantly, it might encourage institutions to review how something might have occurred in the first place and to change their practises to ensure that it never does again.

The right hon. Lady rightly highlighted that the amendments in the Measure are part of a package of changes to practice. I hope she can reassure me that that includes appropriate support being offered to victims, but also openness on making routes to reporting at an early stage clear and available within the Church’s structures—for example, through ChildLine, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the police or health and social services. That would ensure that people never feel that they do not have anywhere to turn in the event of experiencing such approaches from a member of the Church.

Similarly, as a safeguard for Church staff and the clergy’s own protection, as well as that of vulnerable people, sufficient guidance and training should be provided to ensure that people do not find themselves inadvertently in positions of vulnerability, open to either accusations or abuse. Within that sphere of additional guidance, I hope that due regard will be given to tackling abuse via the internet and to appropriate rules surrounding use of Church property—although I fully accept that that is outwith the Measures.

I agree with the spirit in which the right hon. Lady outlined the Measure. It seems to offer additional safeguards, adding a further layer of statutory safeguarding in the Church. Recognition of the horrors of abuse is an important part of moving on, but we can all agree that ultimately we want organisations to prevent any more child abuse from ever happening again.

I have some questions about a few specific points in the Measure. The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire raised the issue of the bishop being “satisfied”. I come to it from a slightly different angle. My concern is that the public be assured of how that satisfaction has been reached and, as mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, of the sources of information for that satisfaction being limited to a local authority or the police. The right hon. Lady has commented on that but I would like her to expand further.

With regard to clergy suspension, proposed new subsection (2B)(b) in section 1(3) refers to the bishop considering measures to be “appropriate”. I would like confirmation that the considerations are made with the vulnerable person or child at the centre of them. I appreciate that the right hon, Lady mentioned the need to have a balance. For too long, the public sense has been that the balance has not been towards the victim. I would like to ensure that the victim is at the centre of considerations.

Throughout the document there are references to filing a copy in the diocesan registry. With my limited knowledge of Church practices and procedures, I wondered whether that was in the public domain. Will that requirement be sufficient to restore public confidence?

Turning to the church wardens’ suspension, I was surprised to see in proposed new section 6A(10) in section 2 that

“the bishop shall give each of the following written notification—”.

That is followed by a number of individuals who will receive written notification of suspension or revocation of suspension.

There is no similar reference to such extensive notification with regard to clergy. I am concerned that there might be a greater burden on the reputation of church wardens and PCCs, for which there is also an extended list. I am referring to members of parochial church councils, not police and crime commissioners. My perspective is that there is higher trust of the clergy in the community. If the same level of scrutiny is applied to individual members of the clergy as to the church wardens and PCCs, would there be parity across the board? I would appreciate a comment on that.

Proposed new section 8(1A) in section 2 (8) concerns reinstatement following revocation of the suspension and says,

“if the office has remained vacant”.

I am considering that in the context of employment law and the responsibilities of the Church as an employer. Were somebody to be suspended for three months, or an extended period of six months while an investigation was ongoing, and it were found that there was no case to answer and the individual could be reinstated, there should not have been an appointment on a permanent basis to their position in their absence. The wording

“if the office has remained vacant”

suggests that somebody could be appointed during a temporary absence. That could give rise to a claim of constructive dismissal, which no one would want.

I also have a question about independence in relation to section 2 (9). The post holder is referred to as the “diocesan safeguarding advisor”. [Interruption.] We are being invaded. That was a meteor.

[The Chair]

Order.

[Melanie Onn]

I want to ask about the independence of that role and how we demonstrate confidence in that post holder, who will play such a significant and pivotal role under the new Measures, which are to be welcomed.

Regarding the rules for appeal, the guidance specifies that “child” means up to the age of 18 and a vulnerable person is as described. Is there additional consideration of care leavers, for whom local authorities retain a duty of care until the age of 21 or occasionally until the age of 24, or are they included in that description?

The right hon. Lady’s document talks about clerics’ access to appeals. Again, this is a matter of clarification due to my personal ignorance of the matter, but does the term “cleric” include church wardens and members of the PCCs? You referenced that in response to an intervention, so you may have already covered it.

[The Chair]

“She”, not “you”.

[Melanie Onn]

“She”—I apologise, Mr Hanson.

Finally, have the circumstances in which Church legal aid may be refused been considered at all? If someone wishes to appeal, will that be universally available and what guidance is there on that?

The Measure that the Minister brings before us seems to offer some additional support and a further layer of statutory safeguarding to the Church. I look forward to her response.

[The Chair]

Before the right hon. Lady responds, may I remind the Committee that we are debating in this hour and a half both Measures? The right hon. Lady has not yet spoken, should she still wish to, about the Diocesan Stipends Fund (Amendment) Measure (HC 723). If other Members wish to speak on that Measure, they are free to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Melanie Onn]

I thank the right hon. Lady again for sight of her comments before our sitting this morning.

I agree that the second Measure is a small, technical one, and it is not my intention to oppose it today. It makes sense to allow the Church greater flexibility and to give it parity with charities. Many dioceses face increasingly difficult financial decisions and it is important to give them the options that they need to do the best they can in constrained times. We will support the Measure, but I want to ask a few questions, for the record.

What work is being done to ensure that church trustees have the required skills and training to carry out the decisions extended to them under the Measure? Have the Government done any work to assess the levels of demand for the legislation, or on any tangible impact that it might have on churches, their parishioners and the wider communities they serve? Finally, are there projections of the type of returns that dioceses may see as a result of the change, although that could be more difficult to predict?

To conclude our debate on the Measures, my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle recognised well our great opportunity in this place to take a view on the rules in the Church, which is an important organisation and institution of the community of this country. When we leave the Committee Room, it is important for us all to feel completely reassured and comfortable with the fact the Measures are sufficient to reassure the public and to ensure that abuse of a type that we have seen will be sufficiently dissuaded by the legislation.