RAAC: St Leonard’s, Durham

Debate between Mary Kelly Foy and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Westminster Hall

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the impact of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete at St Leonard’s Catholic School, City of Durham.

I welcome the Minister to his place; I know that the right hon. Gentleman has a great deal of experience at the Department for Education and I look forward to working with him to resolve the situation at St Leonard’s. I note that only a week into his role he has already offered to meet me, and I thank him for that. That is far more than his predecessor offered.

There are four purposes to this debate. The first is to bring the Minister up to speed with the situation; the second is to ensure that there are no delays to building the temporary structures; the third is to deliver justice to the parents and pupils at the school; and the last is to accelerate the promised and much deserved rebuild of St Leonard’s.

First, I will supply a bit of history. In 2010, the then Education Secretary scrapped the Building Schools for the Future programme—something that he later regretted. Although that contrition from the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is welcome, let’s face it: he is not the one suffering the consequences of a crumbling school—unlike the parents, pupils and teachers in my constituency, who were shocked when St Leonard’s was ordered to close just days before the autumn term began, due to the presence of RAAC.

Parts of St Leonard’s remain shut, 11 weeks on. That has had a serious impact on the lives of my constituents and the children at the school. I will shortly share some of the comments I have received from parents. This is an extremely important year for pupils in year 11 and the sixth-form students in year 13—a crucial year for GCSEs and A-levels. So far, the Government have offered no dispensation for those pupils, who have had more than 11 weeks of their education disrupted.

Let us not forget that, for those studying design and technology, music, sciences and specialist subjects, the disruptions are ongoing: there are no labs, no music rooms and no workshops available. Instead, pupils are being taught in a noisy sports hall and in classes of up to 60. In addition, Ofqual has told me that it is

“not in a position to agree adaptations”

even though items such as coursework and school books were not retrieved from the old building until 27 October. Full face-to-face learning did not commence until 30 October, with parts of the school remaining shut now. It is clearly nonsense that, on the one hand, pupils would be allowed mitigating circumstances if a fire alarm went off in the school during an exam, but, on the other, they are denied exemptions if their schooling has been disrupted for more than 11 weeks.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

As my hon. Friend knows, many pupils at St Leonard’s travel from North Durham. I have had representations similar to the ones she has received from parents about the effect on exams. Does she agree that, in spite of that, some of the teachers are doing great work in trying to overcome the difficulties? They are seriously concerned about the effects of the disruption on those children’s exam results next year.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. The staff have been working under such difficult circumstances. They have seen first hand the effect the situation is having on their pupils, who have worked so hard. We should remember that they are pupils who also suffered through the pandemic. We are urging the Minister to do all he can. I implore him to change Ofqual’s refusal to make any mitigations. He could perhaps amend the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, or give a one-off dispensation to the pupils in years 11 and 13—anything to help these pupils and their families.

I must mention a pupil at St Leonard’s, Henry Hague, who bravely questioned the Department for Education officials when they visited the school. Henry asked, “Will our difficulties be recognised for A-level and GCSE results?” The DFE said no. What message is that sending to Henry’s generation? It is that the Government are not prepared to help them and that their departmental officials gloss over this injustice. The King’s Speech stated:

“Steps will be taken to ensure young people have the knowledge and skills to succeed”.

Does that include the nearly 1,500 pupils at St Leonard’s? It does not seem that way.

Eleven weeks on, parents, pupils and teachers are fed up—fed up with the additional costs and the additional stresses that this situation has put them in. I do not blame them; I would feel exactly the same in their position. To add insult to injury, the school has been asking the DFE to intervene for years. It even lobbied the then Schools Minister, the right hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb), in 2017, but nothing came of it.

I have read that if the Tory-led Government—and let us not forget the Liberal Democrats, who supported this as well—had kept the Building Schools for the Future programme, every single school with RAAC, including St Leonard’s, would have been rebuilt by this year. I urge the Minister to lobby the Treasury and No. 10 to reintroduce that programme; perhaps the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities can join him.

I now turn to the comments that I have received from parents. Time does not permit me to share everything, but I want to challenge the new Schools Minister. I know that he has only been in the role for a week, but I ask him to please come to Durham and speak to the parents himself, not just to selected groups, and demonstrate to my constituents that he is on their side and will get this mess cleared up as soon as possible. What my constituents and their children are going through is an injustice. There are no other words to describe it. Parents at St Leonard’s appreciated that Baroness Barran visited and told us that money would be no object, but now they feel like they have been abandoned.

Parents are extremely concerned about the mental wellbeing of their children—not only that, but some have said that their child’s mental health is in decline. Let us not forget that there are additional pressures on children with special educational needs and disabilities, and for children who receive free school meals. I am really concerned because they receive only packed lunches at the moment, rather than hot meals.

This has taken a toll on the mental health of the parents, too. Both parents and pupils are worried about catching up due to lost time in the classroom. They are worried about exams and about the future, especially when so many of these pupils already had their educations disrupted by the pandemic. Parents have also told me that they are having to fork out for private tuition for their kids, and, to compound this stress, they are having to organise childcare and rearrange their own work schedules. Other issues, such as transport, are also eating into teaching time as pupils now have to travel to new locations. That is not at all helped by the greedy bosses at Go North East. Perhaps the Minister could have a word with his colleagues at the Department for Transport and encourage them to give bus drivers the pay rise that they deserve.

I must say that the parents, pupils, and teachers—and all the school staff—have amazed me with their resilience. It is privilege to represent them here. If only previous Ministers demonstrated the same fortitude as my constituents. On that note, I turn to ministerial accountability—or the lack of it. We had a statement from the Secretary of State for Education at the beginning of September, but that was the last proactive statement made by the DFE on the subject in this House.

Ministers had to be summoned via urgent questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson). Although we can use named day questions to hold Ministers to account, those are useful only if Departments actually answer them. On issues such as free school meals, I received copy-and-paste replies. On other issues, I never even received a response prior to Prorogation. Responses to my named day questions in the last Session were late, and in this Session one was over a week late. However, I note that the Minister provided a response a few hours ago.

In addition, there was a written statement on school funding in the final week before Prorogation, and again the then Minister had to be summoned to the House via an urgent question. I hope you will agree, Mr Vickers, that this is not a dry procedural issue; it matters to my constituents and their children. In this Session, the DFE and other Departments must up their game and show my constituents the respect they deserve.

I want to finish with some asks. On costs, can we please speed up the process of remunerating the trust? Although I am aware at the Government have paid some of the costs up front, including for Ushaw College, the trust has spent more than £500,000 for critical services, and only £50,000 has been reimbursed so far.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

St Benet’s in Ouston in my constituency of North Durham is affected by reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete. It is a feeder school for St Leonard’s, and no commitment has yet been given about whether it will be rebuilt. Pupils are already leaving the school, and its budget next year and, ultimately, the feed into St Leonard’s will be affected by that. Does my hon. Friend agree that early decisions need to be made about whether St Benet’s will be rebuilt, and that it should be compensated next year for the fall in pupils?

Private Pension Schemes: Regulation

Debate between Mary Kelly Foy and Kevan Jones

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Member—it would not be an Adjournment debate without his intervention. He raises an interesting point. Most people do not understand their pension; they put their trust in the provider. They think that they are saving for their retirement and that they should have a pension when they retire—let us be honest, we have all encouraged people to pay into a pension—only to be let down by the way in which the various schemes operate. I will touch on the regulation in a minute.

I want to make two key points at this stage. First, the change to the pension scheme was not directly communicated to pension plan members. In fact, having done some research, I understand there is no legal requirement for the scheme to do so. However, the trustees cover themselves slightly on page 8 of the 2011 annual report by saying that, during the planned year, they had made changes to some factors and a calculation of methodology—it is literally two lines in the annual report. I beg anyone to understand what that meant in practice for people’s pensions. The annual report provided no further detail and, frankly, it is not worth the paper it is written on. The first time most people found out about this was when they realised the pension they had already taken was not increasing.

According to the Pensions Regulator’s website, trustees must act in “the best interests” of scheme members, as well as “prudently, responsibly and honestly.” In this case, I would argue that the trustees are not putting the interests of pensioners first; they are putting the interests of Nissan Motor Corporation above those of pensioners. The cumulative effect of what they have done is to save Nissan money it would have put into the pension scheme. Nor would I argue that it is responsible or honest to hide the changes in less than two lines of an annual report. There was no direct communication to let pensioners, or potential pensioners, know about the changes and how they would affect future years.

When I heard about this, I thought the obvious person to go to was the pensions ombudsman or the Pensions Regulator. Well, there was a bit of a ping-pong between the two of them. One wrote to me saying that the other was responsible, and vice versa. It went backwards and forwards. Frankly, my experience of them is that they are about as much good as a chocolate teapot. They are just blaming one another. It was this Member of Parliament writing to them—heaven help an individual pensioner writing to them to get any joy out of them.

It comes back to the point raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on regulation and how we control these pension schemes. As I say, my experience of those two organisations has not been very good, so I would like the Minister to look at that point about the regulator and the ombudsman.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

Constituents have contacted me on this very issue, so I thank my right hon. Friend for securing this debate. Does he agree that this is an outrageous way to treat workers and that, frankly, it reflects terribly on Nissan?

[Mr Jones]

It is. These people have worked hard and saved into their pension. They think they have done the right thing and, through no fault of their own, they have found themselves in this position.

I did finally get a line out of the pensions ombudsman; he said that he was not prepared to look at the case because that notification, that one line in the annual report, was good enough. I find it absolutely amazing that it could be argued that this is communication with pension members. I doubt very many people actually read their pension scheme’s annual report. I am one of the sad people who do, but that is because of my trade union background. Many people do not. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) knows that I am a bit of an anorak when it comes to the pension industry. Again, the idea that that can be held up as showing that the pension trustees have informed the pensioners is ridiculous. But that was the end of the game—no more correspondence came forward from either the regulator or the ombudsman.

Dental Care: Durham

Debate between Mary Kelly Foy and Kevan Jones

Wednesday 24th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The dentists that I have spoken to recently all want to help NHS patients, but the way the contracts are designed, it is not worth their while, and of course they have to make a living.

I mentioned that I made a point of order yesterday regarding the Prime Minister, who has repeatedly claimed that there are “500 more dentists” in the NHS. However, following a freedom of information request, we now know that the number of dentists in the NHS fell by nearly 700 last year. The number of dentists has also fallen since the pandemic and is at its lowest level in a decade.

Diagnosing the causes of the problem is not complicated. As I mentioned at the beginning, Britain has poorer oral health than any other developed economy. The system is also dysfunctional, and practices have handed back a record £400 million-worth of funding back to the Government because they do not have the capacity to meet the required targets.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend and neighbour agree that we have to see what the need is in each area? I contrast the current approach with when Labour were in power in Durham: we brought in new capacity where we knew that areas did not have access to NHS dentistry.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I thank my right hon. Friend for the intervention. We all know that there is huge demand and such a lack of NHS dentists out there that it is, I guess, a question of political will whether this problem is solved or not.

The absence of oral healthcare from our national debate about the future of the NHS is alarming. Dentistry is integral to our national health and therefore must be key to the NHS. Without proper investment in preventive healthcare such as dental check-ups, we cannot quickly treat oral cancers, nor can we stem the flow of people with dental problems into our already overcrowded accident and emergency departments.

I would be grateful if the Minister responded to the following questions. First, will he ensure that dentistry is properly represented in the governance structures of the NHS? Dentistry must be at the centre of the policy-making process, not an afterthought. Secondly, will the Government publish a comprehensive national dental strategy, one that is focused on prevention and tackling health inequalities? Thirdly, will he undertake meaningful reform of the NHS dental contract, which would stem the flow of dentists out of the system? Fourthly, will he work with the BDA on the previous points?

Finally, as I have said, I raised a point of order yesterday on the Prime Minister’s claim that there are 500 extra dentists in the NHS. There are in fact 700 fewer dentists, not more. Unless I have missed something today, the Prime Minister has not corrected the record, as he is obliged to. Will the Minister finally correct the record on behalf of the Prime Minister?

I could have spoken for hours this evening, reading out the correspondence I have received from constituents. Each constituent’s experience reflects a serious failure by this Government, so I implore the Minister not to insult the intelligence of the people of Durham, but to take this opportunity to accept that there is a crisis in NHS dentistry and to commit finally to meaningful reform.

Leamside Line

Debate between Mary Kelly Foy and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Westminster Hall

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. [Interruption.] Yes, there were probably a number of reasons, to do with the preceding Government and some of the rules that were in place. All I can say is that my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West has been fighting for years and years.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

We were unpeeling the mess of rail privatisation and the underinvestment in the system, which led to things such as Potters Bar. We did get major investments, including the improved electrification of the north-east main line.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that. In the north-east, we are too often treated as second-class citizens and as less deserving of investment. Yes, the plans would cost money, but the best things do. I believe that Durham deserves the best and our county is worth investing in. I only wish the Government thought the same. Sadly, Ministers seem to find it easier to let the north-east down than to level it up.

HMP Frankland: Covid-19

Debate between Mary Kelly Foy and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mary Kelly Foy]

That is of course extremely important; it is one of the issues that I shall outline in this debate.

The selflessness of prison staff and their commitment to their work brings me to the purpose of this debate. In recent weeks, HMP Frankland has experienced an alarming rise in the number of covid-19 infections. At the peak of the outbreak, around 66 prisoners out of a prison population of 850 were confirmed as covid-19 positive, meaning that around 8% of prisoners were infected. In addition, at the peak around 220 staff were off work, with 73 operational staff covid-19 positive.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour on securing this debate. I have a lot of constituents who work in Durham, Low Newton and Frankland prisons, and I pay tribute to the hard work they have done. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not just about the operational staff? I have had a few cases in which the Prison Service has taken quite a rigid attitude towards those who are caring for vulnerable people at home and not been flexible in its approach to some of those cases.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

My right hon. Friend is correct. My discussions with the prison governor have shown how dedicated the prison is not just to the operational staff but all the staff and prisoners and the wider prison community.

In total, given the covid cases and the numbers isolating, more than 20% of all staff employed by the prison were off work at the same time. It is clear that the number of infections at Frankland reached an alarming level, especially given what we know about the ease and speed with which the virus spreads. It is therefore not surprising that both Public Health England and the wider prison outbreak control team recommended that HMP Frankland moved from stage 4 restrictions to the most severe stage 5 restrictions, in what would have been, in effect, a complete lockdown of the prison.

The recommendation was supported by the Prison Officers Association, which is extremely concerned for the welfare of prison staff and prisoners, because of the real fear that the virus was out of control in the prison. However, even though there was strong support for stage 5 restrictions from Public Health England, the outbreak control team and the POA, the gold command at HMP Frankland rejected the recommendation and instead reduced the number of prisoners allowed to exercise at any one time and the frequency of exercise; mandated mask wearing; and increased testing. This compromise was then accepted by the outbreak control team.

I recognise the pressures that the prison leadership is under, as well as the need to balance staff and prisoner safety with prisoners’ human rights, but I am concerned that the gold command seemingly rejected the initial advice of public health professionals. Does the Minister agree that local committee concerns should not be overruled by gold commands without being discussed at a national level first, especially when supported by Public Health England?

At HMP Frankland, I am happy to say that there is an extremely open and productive relationship between the Prison Officers Association and the prison’s leadership, and that this includes daily meetings and the sharing of Public Health England advice to the outbreak control team with POA representatives. However, as I understand it, while Frankland follows best practice on this, prison governors are under no obligation to share advice and recommendations with the POA. As the union is the representative of staff within prisons, this is clearly not right. So does the Minister agree that gold commands should discuss and divulge all Public Health England advice to and with the Prison Officers Association as the representatives of prison staff?

The infection levels among staff at HMP Frankland posed two serious problems. The first is with regards to staffing levels as a result of covid-19-related absences. It is no exaggeration to say that the staffing cover was paper thin due to these absences. HMP Frankland is a high-security prison, home to some of the most dangerous prisoners in the country. In such an institution, under-staffing poses an unacceptable risk to staff at work, to the protections offered to prisoners and to the general running of the facility. While staffing shortages have not, at this stage, reached a dangerous level at Frankland, I think we can all agree that genuine threats to staffing levels at any prison must always be taken seriously.

The second issue is the threat the virus poses to the health of staff and prisoners. I am aware that Frankland is a secure environment in which there are already restrictions on prisoners’ activities and movement, which can help slow down the spread of the virus. I also appreciate that additional measures were introduced by gold command in an effort to avoid a move from stage 4 restrictions to stage 5. It is positive news that these measures appear to have had some success, with the number of staff off due to covid-19 dropping from 220 to 112, while the number of prisoners infected or isolating has dropped significantly. This is a welcome improvement, albeit one that will need to be monitored closely as restrictions are eased in wider society.

However, although the decisions to increase stage 4 restrictions in order to avoid stage 5 by HMP Frankland gold command may have lowered the numbers of staff and prisoners who have had to isolate, it is arguable that a short-term move to stage 5 would have been a lower risk and would have better protected those in the prison, especially as this was the initial advice of the outbreak control team. I know that even temporary stage 5 restrictions would have been exceptionally tough for prisoners, especially for their mental health. However, I want to be clear that the staff at Frankland are concerned about more than just their own welfare and that of their families; they are also concerned about prisoner safety. No prison officer wants a total lockdown unless it was completely necessary, as they know the impact that this would have upon prisoners. Yet, while the effects of a lockdown would have been harsh, it was arguably necessary to best keep prisoners safe from covid.

I also recognise the argument and understand the concerns that stage 5 restrictions could lead to prisoner dissent at a level that would pose a different sort of threat to staff. However, there are a number of reasons why I do not believe that this occasion on its own was an adequate reason to avoid a stage 5 lockdown due to covid-19. First, there is the fact that many prisoners are just as afraid of the risk of infection as staff are, and that they would understand the need for stage 5 restrictions if it was needed to protect them from a major covid-19 outbreak.

Secondly, there is the fact that, under stage 4 restrictions, any prisoner who must isolate as a result of possible covid-19 exposure is losing out on freedoms that other prisoners have, through no fault of their own. As a result of this, there is potentially an incentive for prisoners to not report covid-19 symptoms, so that they do not lose their access to exercise, showers and phone calls. If every prisoner is locked down under the same restrictions for a short period to combat a major infection spike, that potential is reduced.

Finally, there is the argument that a total lockdown could inspire some prisoners to act disruptively, putting the physical safety of staff at risk in a different way. While I know that there will always be a balance between managing the risk of prisoner disruption with the threat from the virus, it is vital that prisoner behaviour does not dictate the decisions taken to protect prisoners’ welfare, as well as the health and safety of staff. Does the Minister agree that the health and safety of staff should not be ignored in favour of prisoner appeasement?

It also strikes me that many of the negative implications of stage 5 restrictions could be resolved if prisoner welfare in general was improved. An example of that at HMP Frankland is the lack of telephone access in cells in comparison with other prisons. Does the Minister agree that telephones in cells would mitigate some of the impact of covid-19 restrictions on prisoners? Will she update the House on when HMP Frankland can expect to have such facilities?

The final issue I would like to raise is the treatment of prisoners in relation to wider society. While I understand that the leadership at Frankland took the decision to prohibit the use of gym equipment, I have also heard that that is not the case in all prisons in England. At a time when gyms have been closed nationwide due to the Government’s position that they are not safe to be open, it seems bizarre that gym facilities at some prisons have remained open. Will the Minister confirm that she believes that coronavirus restrictions in prisons should mirror those in wider society?

I want to praise the dialogue and the relationship between the governors at HMP Frankland and the POA representatives at the prison. They might not agree on every issue, but the strength of their working relationship has been stressed to me. In my opinion, it offers a great example to other institutions and employers across the country.

While the situation at Frankland is, thankfully, improving, it is a reminder that no matter how well an institution responds to covid-19, there is always room for improvement and lessons to be learned. Above all, we must recognise that there is a human element to these situations and that we cannot just look at numbers alone, alarming as they were. Prison officers work in a job where social distancing is often impossible and where the people they work with are not always compliant. That places an incredible level of stress on staff.

The prison staff and many of the prisoners at Frankland are afraid of the virus, as they are at every prison. Just like everyone else, they fear getting ill and the staff are scared of bringing the virus home to their families and to their communities. No one should have to work or live in an environment that is not safe. While prisons must stay open, no matter the circumstances, the way in which they operate can be altered to keep people safe and to mitigate the risks to staff and prisoners.

I am grateful to the Minister for her time and to right hon. and hon. Members for their interventions. I hope that important lessons can be learned from this situation.