Oral Answers to Questions

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

First, I hope that people will be increasingly informed about the details of the youth contract, which will start in April next year—a new billion-pound programme that will provide 250,000 work experience places to any 18 to 24-year-olds who want to take part in a work placement scheme. It will also provide a new subsidy, worth about half the basic wage, to thousands of young people who are seeking employment. The key thing is that from April next year, under the youth contract, every single 18 to 24-year-old who cannot find work will have the opportunity to earn or learn.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

May I return the Deputy Prime Minister to the issue of Lords reform? Like him, I support a 100% elected House. Often, when I read the deliberations of the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform, I am concerned that there is a very negative view coming forward from a variety of Members. Does he have any view on the fact that a consensus is perhaps emerging, which might speed the passage of legislation?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I cannot find my notes on the latest social attitudes survey, which was published recently, but in it, public opinion was very clear: only 6% of the members of the British public surveyed supported the status quo—an unelected House of Lords. The vast majority wanted the House of Lords to be fully elected, partially elected, or even abolished. As for those who say that the issue is a minority distraction, I totally accept that there are many more important things weighing on people’s minds at the moment—not least jobs, unemployment, and growth in our economy, which remains our absolute priority—but the vast majority of people, when they stop and think about it, want a reformed House of Lords.

Oral Answers to Questions

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am sure Government Back Benchers want to hear their own colleague, Mr Martin Vickers.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday’s announcement about local television was good news for my constituency, where Channel 7, the sole survivor from the original batch, is based. Does the Prime Minister agree that local broadcasting strengthens local communities and advances the big society? If he is in north Lincolnshire in the near future, will he find time to pay Channel 7 a visit?

EU Council

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

There are two points. First, the FSA mentions only three politicians, one of whom is the shadow Chancellor. On placating people, if the hon. Gentleman casts his mind back to last Wednesday, he will find that I was not particularly placating anybody with the moderate and reasonable requests I was making of the European Union. It was leadership on behalf of Britain, not any one part of it.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that he has the overwhelming support of my constituents from across the political spectrum. If we are to safeguard jobs and expand the economy, we must be equally robust in all our EU negotiations. He will know that the common fisheries policy adversely affects my constituency. Will he assure my constituents that his colleagues will follow his lead when negotiating on that matter?

[The Prime Minister]

I know how important the cod issue is to my hon. Friend’s constituents and people right across that region. I will ensure that Ministers in the coalition Government stand up for our fishermen.

Oral Answers to Questions

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We will see how my colleagues in the other place vote. In fact, the more people have looked at the Bill, the more reassured they are that its purposes are fully in line with many of the reforms to the health service that the previous Government introduced, with less centralisation, less bureaucracy, more control by clinicians and GPs, and a more patient-centred health service, all the while enshrining and protecting the founding principles of the NHS—free at the point of use, and based on need, not on the ability to pay. The hon. Gentleman may feel that the NHS is in no need of reform at all; anyone who knows anything about the NHS and realises that it faces increasing costs accepts that it must be reformed, but of course reformed in the right way.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

Those of us who favour reform of the upper House are concerned that there should be no slippage to the timetable. Will Ministers confirm that the Joint Committee on the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill will indeed report by the end of February?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am absolutely delighted to see that I have an ally on this issue on the Government Benches, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will communicate his enthusiasm for reform of the other place to all those on the Benches behind and on either side of him. The Committee has indeed been asked to report by the end of February next year; that will allow us then to present the legislation in a timely way. I very much hope that the Committee will be able to meet that timeline.

House of Lords Reform

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

If my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) were to propose that names appear on the ballot paper in reverse order, I would happily support him, given that my surname begins with V.

When these proposals were first made, I used the same phrase as my hon. Friend—I said that I broadly supported them—and having examined them more closely, I endorse them almost without reservation. I have some reservations, however, which I will come to later. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), I think I am right in saying that no one in my constituency has contacted me about this matter, either for or against, and despite my efforts, using my column in the Grimsby Telegraph, to bring attention to it, all I have succeeded in doing is to stir up apathy.

One of the strangest things to emerge in recent weeks, as this matter has been debated, has been the argument by those in the upper House who keep declaring that their role should continue to be one of scrutiny, but who then declare their total opposition to the Bill in principle, despite it appearing in the manifestos of each of the three main parties. Had I been a Member of the House in the late 1990s, I would probably have opposed the proposals that were made then, but life has moved on, and we now have a totally unacceptable situation in the upper House, which is completely reliant on patronage. I happen to believe that in a free country, representatives should be elected, and one of my objections is that the current proposals suggest that 20% remain unelected. I would prefer 100% elected, although I hold the rather idiosyncratic view that the bishops should remain. Even were they to remain without voting rights, they would offer spiritual guidance beneficial to our deliberations.

Those who argue that two elected Houses will lead to conflict and a power grab by the upper House—or Senate, as I hope it would be called—I would say that the lower House will retain control of money Bills, and of course the Parliament Acts will remain. Why should this country alone among nations with two elected Houses be unable to meet the challenge of those two Houses co-existing? The draft Bill acknowledges that the relationship between the two Houses is governed to a great extent by convention, and I am pleased that that will be retained. It would be a backward move were conflicts to be resolved by the judiciary.

On the question of expertise, it is interesting to note that, as has been said, expertise can be drawn on through the setting up of boards of inquiry and royal commissions, to which the great and the good can be appointed. The logic of saying that only experts should decide is that we pack our bags, go home and leave it all to the experts down the corridor.

On the 15-year term of office, it has been suggested that once elected, Members will be unaccountable. Governments with a working majority could be said to be unaccountable, although of course they constantly renew their mandate with support from this House. Those who come up for election to the upper House will stand or fall by the popularity of the Government, in the same way as MEPs and councillors are swept to one side if the Government happen to be unpopular. The same will happen in elections to the upper House.

Whatever electoral system is eventually settled on, I sincerely hope that it will not include a closed list. Closed lists are the complete negation of democracy, which is what we are trying to improve and encourage in this process. They give power to party officials, and, as someone who played a minor role as a party official, I speak from some experience. I have previously questioned the electoral districts, and the Minister knows my concerns about them. I hope that the districts will be as small as practicable to operate in a proportionate system. I support the proposal.

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course we need to get the balance right in seeking to get as much support for these measures as possible. Hon. Members should remember that what we have published today was preceded by several meetings of a cross-party committee where although there was not consensus on everything, there was a considerable degree of consensus. I pay tribute to Members on the Opposition Front Bench who played an active and constructive role in that, but as I said in my opening statement, this is a Government measure and the Government are determined to act.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

Like my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), I broadly welcome the proposals, which seem to be a natural extension of the democratic process. However, it is important that electors identify with their representatives and the area they represent. People generally do not identify with the English regions. I urge the Government to rule out election by regions and consider election by our historic counties.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We had precisely that discussion in the cross-party committee and, for the exact reason the hon. Gentleman sets out, we believe that the best basis on which to proceed—we will remit the exact details to an independent panel of academics and experts—is to have clusters of counties, because they are, quite literally, a familiar territory and a familiar landscape for millions of voters up and down the country and should be the building blocks of the large constituencies or districts that elected members of a reformed House of Lords would represent.

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Friday 11th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on presenting the Bill. The contributions so far have shown

“what a tangled web we weave”.

I support devolution as far as it has gone, but I am a great supporter of the Union. That is why my hon. Friend has done a service by promoting further debate.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman started the quotation but did not finish it:

“Oh! what a tangled web we weave

When first we practice to deceive”.

I am sure that he is not suggesting that the Bill is deceiving.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Vickers]

That is why I used only the first half of the quotation. I would not dream of suggesting anything such as deception.

I recognise the growing concern—irritation would be one way of putting it—among my constituents, who rightly or wrongly feel that there is now an injustice and that Scotland has a greater say and influence over issues than they do in Lincolnshire. We in the Cleethorpes constituency are in the Yorkshire and Humber region. We do not like that, but the fact is that, officially, we seem to have been consigned to it, where there are 54 constituencies. So, in theory, the 59 constituencies that make up Scotland could overrule my constituents’ wishes on an issue that affected only their region.

Many hon. Members have talked about the designation used in Bills—for example, the Energy Bill states that it is limited to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Education Bill states that it is limited to England and Wales. It does not seem beyond the wit of man to find a system whereby Bills were designated as applying only to one part of the kingdom or another.

The Bill’s great strength is that it asks for a common-sense approach to be taken to the process of debate and scrutiny of draft legislation that applies only to the people of England. The anomaly that has been rather misleadingly entitled, “the West Lothian question” exists as a procedural quirk in our system. The Bill proposes that the citizens of England be given the same representation on draft legislation and that we who represent the people of England be given the same accountability as those who represent the devolved nations.

The thrust of the Bill is not something that is radical or unsupported but is a call for the implementation of the ideal of representation, which is the core of our system. I always hesitate to use the word “fair”, but the people of my constituency feel, as I mentioned a moment ago, that the system is unfair to them. The word “fairness” is used a lot in politics these days. It is rather a dangerous concept for politicians. Of course, people think that something is fair only if it is to their advantage. The present system is seen by English people as unfair.

Mention has been made of the Conservative democracy taskforce. Its contribution to the debate has been welcome. I had rather thought that its thoughts and conclusions had been put, as with so many reports, into the litter bin of history, but we have perhaps resurrected them this morning. Of course, as has been mentioned, the taskforce suggests that the Committee stage could be taken by English Members if a Bill related only to England—that seems perfectly reasonable—and that the whole House would contribute again on Third Reading. I quote Lord Hurd:

“The government of the United Kingdom would have to ensure that its English measures were acceptable to enough English MPs—or else not put them forward. There would be nothing extraordinary in this process: it is called politics.”

That seems an eminently sensible contribution to the debate.

The taskforce proposals would retain the overall parliamentary majority of the UK Government for all policy and daily business. English MPs would have reserved to them only the detailed scrutiny and amendment of legislation that exclusively affects their constituents—the residents of England—but legislation that contained unacceptable amendments passed in Committee could be rejected. That seems an eminently sensible way forward.

I support the Bill because it allows the debate to continue. Perhaps we are on the road to a more federal system, and if we are it is essential that we stop seriously to debate and consider all possible aspects, but the Bill has a downside if taken to its logical conclusion. Although I represent Cleethorpes, I live in the neighbouring constituency of Great Grimsby. Although my representative is not in his place, I am sure that he would not mind my mentioning one aspect of Grimsby. There is something called the Grimsby Pastures Act, which was first passed in 1849 and renewed in 1949, and it relates to the almost unique system of freemen of what was the borough of Great Grimsby.

Freedom of the borough is not an honorary title but an hereditary position. The freemen own a considerable amount of land in the borough, the income from which is distributed to the freemen. Only a few hundred of them are left now. My father was a freeman, but by some quirk of the system, because I was born in Cleethorpes, I did not succeed and I am therefore a few hundred pounds worse off. When that Act comes up for renewal in 2048, only the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) would be able to vote. That guarantees a majority, but hon. Members can understand my logic.

I support the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire has contributed considerably to the debate on the thorny West Lothian question, and I will support the Bill in the Lobby later this morning.

Parliamentary Representation

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)]

I call Chris Bryant.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

rose—

[Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)]

I am sorry. Martin Vickers.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to take part for the first time in a debate under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George), if for no other reason than that the debate gives me an opportunity to repeat the arguments that I made on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on Second Reading. As I said then, there should be some flexibility in the 600-seat straitjacket, to borrow a phrase used by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid).

Those of us who have been involved in politics for many years will have had opportunities to redraw boundaries at various stages and to make submissions to the Boundary Commission. Whether we are dealing with constituency or ward boundaries, the fact is that the jigsaw never fits together. It is a big mistake to put the commission in a straitjacket and to limit it to 600.

It is important that constituents identify to some extent with the unit of administration in which they live. That applies nationally, and I am a great believer in the idea that the nation state is the ideal unit of government. It also applies at local level. My constituency had the misfortune to be moved into the county of Humberside in the 1970s, and the legacy of that lives on. People deeply resent being moved around in that way.

I served as a constituency agent for 15 years before my move to the House. I served in the Gainsborough constituency, a large rural Lincolnshire constituency neighbouring mine, and it made me appreciate that identities vary considerably over geographically relatively short distances of 30 or 40 miles. To be perfectly honest, people in Gainsborough had no interest in what happened 30 miles down the road. Incidentally, that constituency, with the exception of one ward, had the benefit of being within one district council area.

Continually changing boundaries will impact on the vitality and sustainability of local political parties. The democratic process needs viable local parties and associations, but constant boundary changes inevitably impact on their viability. Taking one ward out of a constituency can render the local party virtually bankrupt if the ward’s financial make-up means that it contributes greatly to the party. We need to think seriously about that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute spoke about the step-by-step increase in the number of Members over the years. Although it is true that there has been an increase, the population itself has grown significantly. I sat in the upper House during its debate yesterday, and I was reminded that there were 33 million electors in 1945. The number of eligible voters has now risen to 45 million. So, although I have no instinctive intrinsic objection to rounding off a reduction in the number, I think that it is extremely foolish to limit it to 600.

As to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) made about reform of the House of Lords, I favour a predominantly elected upper House, and there is an opportunity, as he suggested in his intervention, to consider framing that House so that it clearly identifies with communities, particularly if we go along with what I regard as the misguided course of having 600 seats in the House of Commons.