Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Friday 11th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on presenting the Bill. The contributions so far have shown

“what a tangled web we weave”.

I support devolution as far as it has gone, but I am a great supporter of the Union. That is why my hon. Friend has done a service by promoting further debate.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman started the quotation but did not finish it:

“Oh! what a tangled web we weave

When first we practice to deceive”.

I am sure that he is not suggesting that the Bill is deceiving.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Vickers]

That is why I used only the first half of the quotation. I would not dream of suggesting anything such as deception.

I recognise the growing concern—irritation would be one way of putting it—among my constituents, who rightly or wrongly feel that there is now an injustice and that Scotland has a greater say and influence over issues than they do in Lincolnshire. We in the Cleethorpes constituency are in the Yorkshire and Humber region. We do not like that, but the fact is that, officially, we seem to have been consigned to it, where there are 54 constituencies. So, in theory, the 59 constituencies that make up Scotland could overrule my constituents’ wishes on an issue that affected only their region.

Many hon. Members have talked about the designation used in Bills—for example, the Energy Bill states that it is limited to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Education Bill states that it is limited to England and Wales. It does not seem beyond the wit of man to find a system whereby Bills were designated as applying only to one part of the kingdom or another.

The Bill’s great strength is that it asks for a common-sense approach to be taken to the process of debate and scrutiny of draft legislation that applies only to the people of England. The anomaly that has been rather misleadingly entitled, “the West Lothian question” exists as a procedural quirk in our system. The Bill proposes that the citizens of England be given the same representation on draft legislation and that we who represent the people of England be given the same accountability as those who represent the devolved nations.

The thrust of the Bill is not something that is radical or unsupported but is a call for the implementation of the ideal of representation, which is the core of our system. I always hesitate to use the word “fair”, but the people of my constituency feel, as I mentioned a moment ago, that the system is unfair to them. The word “fairness” is used a lot in politics these days. It is rather a dangerous concept for politicians. Of course, people think that something is fair only if it is to their advantage. The present system is seen by English people as unfair.

Mention has been made of the Conservative democracy taskforce. Its contribution to the debate has been welcome. I had rather thought that its thoughts and conclusions had been put, as with so many reports, into the litter bin of history, but we have perhaps resurrected them this morning. Of course, as has been mentioned, the taskforce suggests that the Committee stage could be taken by English Members if a Bill related only to England—that seems perfectly reasonable—and that the whole House would contribute again on Third Reading. I quote Lord Hurd:

“The government of the United Kingdom would have to ensure that its English measures were acceptable to enough English MPs—or else not put them forward. There would be nothing extraordinary in this process: it is called politics.”

That seems an eminently sensible contribution to the debate.

The taskforce proposals would retain the overall parliamentary majority of the UK Government for all policy and daily business. English MPs would have reserved to them only the detailed scrutiny and amendment of legislation that exclusively affects their constituents—the residents of England—but legislation that contained unacceptable amendments passed in Committee could be rejected. That seems an eminently sensible way forward.

I support the Bill because it allows the debate to continue. Perhaps we are on the road to a more federal system, and if we are it is essential that we stop seriously to debate and consider all possible aspects, but the Bill has a downside if taken to its logical conclusion. Although I represent Cleethorpes, I live in the neighbouring constituency of Great Grimsby. Although my representative is not in his place, I am sure that he would not mind my mentioning one aspect of Grimsby. There is something called the Grimsby Pastures Act, which was first passed in 1849 and renewed in 1949, and it relates to the almost unique system of freemen of what was the borough of Great Grimsby.

Freedom of the borough is not an honorary title but an hereditary position. The freemen own a considerable amount of land in the borough, the income from which is distributed to the freemen. Only a few hundred of them are left now. My father was a freeman, but by some quirk of the system, because I was born in Cleethorpes, I did not succeed and I am therefore a few hundred pounds worse off. When that Act comes up for renewal in 2048, only the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) would be able to vote. That guarantees a majority, but hon. Members can understand my logic.

I support the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire has contributed considerably to the debate on the thorny West Lothian question, and I will support the Bill in the Lobby later this morning.