Wales Bill

Mark Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Craig Williams]

I accept that point, but I hope the hon. Gentleman sees where I am coming from. Complacency sinks in when we give the Assembly more powers. It thinks, “Right, we’ve got them, and rather than think about what to do with them, we’ll think about what we want to ask for next.” What could be done with corporation tax and what can already be done with business rates is a good example of that.

I want to talk a little about the capital side of this. The more revenue streams and accountability we are able to give the Welsh Government, the more capital they can borrow, so the more capital they can put into infrastructure projects off their own bat, and we can judge them on the success of that. The Commonwealth games bid will require some capital. More revenue streams, and more accountability and transparency in being able to raise money, would mean that we could make a Commonwealth games bid in Wales. We could put more into the south Wales metro, too, and top up the Cardiff city deal. At the moment, the Welsh Government come to Westminster to access borrowing powers—the old Welsh Development Agency powers, for example—but this Bill tidies things up: it enables the Welsh Government to get on and hopefully deliver for the people of Wales. If they do not, we can more appropriately judge their failure or success.

I have touched on the worrying parts of the RIFW scandal and how I see that as an example of a lazy approach and attitude within the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly more broadly, but I want to move on to the single legal jurisdiction question for Wales. I believe that a single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales has served us well and should be maintained. Although we acknowledge that the Assembly is now going to make a greater body of law, and I commend this Bill for tackling what has been a very thorny issue, I agree that the disruption and cost of establishing a separate legal jurisdiction is not justified at this time. A separate jurisdiction would create upheaval and huge cost for no good reason.

Another issue that has been modified owing to the scrutiny of the draft Bill is the formal recognition in this Bill of a body of Welsh law made by the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Ministers—or Welsh Secretaries, as I should now call them. This change reflects the importance placed on this matter during the revision process in the past few months. Most of the debate on a distinct or separate jurisdiction revolved around the necessity test, and I am hoping that the Bill in its present form will have lanced that boil. I am sure that we will hear more about that from Plaid Cymru Members later. The Welsh Affairs Committee, on which I am proud to serve, concluded that the necessity test was wrong and recommended that it be replaced. I therefore welcome the Secretary of State’s approach to this issue.

The body of Welsh law continues to grow. I have made the point in the Welsh Grand Committee and the Select Committee that the Assembly is making Welsh laws and a body of Welsh laws exists, and that the Assembly should have the security and confidence to stand up and say that, rather than constantly looking for reassurance from Westminster that it can have its own body of laws. We can now build our legal infrastructure around the body of Welsh laws, but we would risk economic and commercial damage if a separate jurisdiction were pursued. We would risk a flight of talent, given that Cardiff has strong professional legal services. We would also face problems with our universities. The University of Aberystwyth is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), and I would not want to put it or any other Welsh university in a position of having to debate whether to teach English or Welsh law to international students. That might be a difficult one for the dean of law at Aberystwyth. For all those reasons, I support the Government’s belief in maintaining a shared legal jurisdiction, and I welcome the work being undertaken by representatives of the Lord Chief Justice’s office.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The short answer is that I am sure the head of the law department at Aberystwyth would enjoy teaching both English and Welsh law. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the positives that has come from the Government in recent days is the at least partial acknowledgement of the need not for a separate legal jurisdiction but for a distinct legal jurisdiction? The difference seems to have been lost on some Conservative Members. People are talking about a separate jurisdiction, but many of us here are calling for a distinct one.

[Craig Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. We debated this matter in the Select Committee and in the Welsh Grand, and I constantly said that I thought we already had distinct arrangements and could not understand what was being asked for. He was right, however, and the Secretary of State has made it clear in the Bill that those distinct arrangements will be put in place.

[Mr Williams]

But surely the hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that the creation of the working group that the Government have announced is a step in the direction of a distinct jurisdiction. Otherwise, we shall be revisiting this matter in the years to come, as the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) has suggested.

[Craig Williams]

I am going to touch on something that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said. I agree that this is a pragmatic solution to a thorny issue, and I cannot see why the distinct arrangements would not stand the test of time as the body of Welsh law emerges. This is a significant change.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words, not least after that tour de force by my neighbour the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies). I assure him that there has been no merger; the Liberal voice might be somewhat muted these days, but it is still there.

If there was ever a case for a clear and understandable devolution settlement, some of what the hon. Gentleman said would be a basis for it—the need to distinguish between Government and Government decisions, and decisions made by the Assembly. That is what the debate is all about. So many of the issues he raised were of the domain of the political debate that was no doubt held in the villages and halls of Brecon and Radnorshire; I say to him with great respect that the people of Brecon and Radnorshire made a very clear statement a few weeks ago of what they wanted, and endorsed a party that has always been and remains committed to extending the case for home rule within a federal Britain.

I very much endorse what the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said about the history and journey of devolution being a tribute to many people and many political parties. It will come as no surprise to the House to hear that I think there were Liberal Democrat fingerprints—perhaps a little faded and jaded now—on the earliest stages of the current process, with the creation of the Silk commission. It produced two reports, one on fiscal responsibility and one endorsing the reserved powers model. I welcome that work, as well as the earlier work done by the previous Labour Government. It has begun to bear some fruit in this Bill.

Perhaps things went a little out of kilter, thereafter—this wave of nostalgia for the coalition had better end now. The St David’s day agreement followed, and we saw the introduction of the draft Wales Bill, which was subjected to extensive scrutiny by the Welsh Affairs Committee under the great stewardship of the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). I will not dwell on the inadequacies of the draft Bill other than to say that our scrutiny was thorough and detailed. The overwhelming response—from civil society, from people of most political parties and from the Welsh Government—was that the draft Bill was at best inadequate and at worst had a stifling effect on the quest of many of us for meaningful, clear and transparent devolution. I repeat that my party has always believed in the idealism I think the hon. Member for Ynys Môn alluded to: home rule for Wales within an aspirant federal Britain.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It always amazes me that the Liberal Democrats—I have the greatest respect for the hon. Gentleman, as he knows—use the phrase “home rule” in this context, because home rule failed and led to Ireland leaving the United Kingdom. Does he not think it would be better to use a phrase that conjures up a vision of success within the United Kingdom, rather than failure?

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a historical interpretation. I use the phrase “home rule” in the context of the historic battles for, and crusade towards, self-government in Wales, evoking the memories of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) about marching with his banner, the Cymru Fydd and his references to the Welsh Parliamentary Party. I think the term resonates with people, if not the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas). I do not think we are arguing against each other; I think we probably aspire to the same objective. We are dancing on the head of the proverbial pin.

I do have one big concern. In the past few months, the previous Bill was kicked into the proverbial long grass or cul-de-sac. I commend the Secretary of State and his officials for their alacrity and speed—it took us all by surprise that we would be here today—in ensuring that the Bill is now before us, and I thank him and his officials for the opportunity to informally raise concerns and ask questions directly in the past few days. Notwithstanding that, there are aspects of the Bill that should not be rushed. There has been some concern expressed about that speed. It is fundamentally important that the new Bill is given sufficient opportunity to be properly scrutinised. I hope officials will be thorough in their consultation and discussions with civil society, political parties and the Welsh Government to ensure that we have a workable Bill which retains and builds on widespread support.

I was privileged to take part in the St David’s Day discussions. Looking around the House, I think I am the only other person here who was in the room having those discussions with the other representatives: the former Plaid Cymru leader, the right hon. Elfyn Llwyd, the former Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith). I well remember the first meeting. I reminded the Secretary of State that I would be discussing our meetings with my colleagues in Cardiff Bay, and that our discussions—the four of us sitting in isolation around that familiar big table in the big office in Gwydyr House—should not be seen in isolation. I have to say that I do not believe those discussions were as inclusive as they should have been. Cross-party and cross-parliamentary collaboration will be the key to the Bill succeeding as discussions proceed if the durable, permanent settlement we wish to see is to be secured.

Were the St David’s day talks an attempt to move the agenda on? Yes they were, and indeed they have moved the agenda on. Inevitably, however, allowing a veto from any one of the four participants risked stopping discussions in their tracks. That was how it was. We went through every one of the Silk commission’s recommendations, item by item: hands up boys if you agree, hands down if you do not. If one person objected, the issue was not pursued. When people talk about the advancement of the debate by the lowest common denominator, they are correct: it was very, very easy to stop aspects of the Silk recommendations. I say that as someone whose party was one of the first—my friends in Plaid Cymru might have been there just before us—to endorse all that Silk said in his second report.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Will the hon. Gentleman spill the beans today and tell us who the biggest culprits were in raising their hands?

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Gentleman, who is my parliamentary neighbour, will not expect me to answer that question. I suspect his sources in Plaid Cymru have given him the answer to that question already. Despite the best intentions, the structure was going to fail from the outset.

Now, to the Bill. To start at the beginning, it is welcome although not surprising that clause 1 recognises the permanence of the National Assembly. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire has told us that the detail of a referendum to abolish the Assembly is not there, and I am pleased about that, but it does establish the principle that the only way we could ever abolish the National Assembly would be through the consent of the Welsh people as expressed in a referendum.

The recent National Assembly elections were not—this will come as no surprise—a stunning success for my party, but they were even less stunning for the Abolish the Welsh Assembly party. Whatever our concerns, and perhaps with just one or two exceptions, there is a recognition that our Assembly is here to stay. Importantly, clause 1 provides for a new and specific recognition of Welsh law:

“There is a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers.”

It is the first time that such recognition has existed, and it is of course welcome, but it must not end there. If the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire were tempted to divide the House later and vote against the Government, the Government Front-Bench team can have some assurance that I would be likely to go through the Lobby with them— but with significant caveats and provisos. I do not know how much power solitary Liberal Democrats have these days—perhaps more than the hon. Gentleman thinks in an Assembly context. I will support the Bill at this point, but with the proviso that certain things must change.

[Chris Davies]

I am sure that the Secretary of the State and the Minister will be overjoyed to hear that the Liberal Democrats will join the Conservatives once again—just like in the previous five years. It was remiss of me not to congratulate my parliamentary neighbour on becoming the new leader of the Welsh Liberals and the last man standing—or last person standing, I should say—in the Welsh Liberal party. Was I hearing Liberal-speak when the hon. Gentleman said he was glad to have a provision for abolishing the Welsh Assembly, but not to have a mechanism included? Surely the Liberals would nowadays want to give people the democratic rights that they should have.

[Mr Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Reference is made to it in the Bill, which should satisfy the hon. Gentleman. We look forward, as I am sure the people of Brecon and Radnorshire do, to seeing the detail in the lengthy schedule that the hon. Gentleman will table to allow the abolition. He might be helping the 4.5% of people who voted for the Abolish the Welsh Assembly party in their cause, although I am not sure it will help his cause if he proceeds along that route. There we are; we will see.

I was talking about the issue of distinct jurisdictions. There is, I think, a concern—the Secretary of State might have gone partly down the road to addressing it—about the Bill’s reference to a distinct Welsh legal jurisdiction. It seems pointless to refer to a body of law without addressing the issue of jurisdiction. With the growing body of Welsh-specific law that will emerge, this seems necessary if the Bill is to provide a proper and long-term settlement.

In common with the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) and others, I do not want to be back here, if I am lucky enough still to be here in five, 10 or however many years, to encounter what would be the fifth Wales Bill. I predict that this issue will not go away, and the Secretary of State should be mindful of it. He is partly mindful of it through the creation of the working group, for which I am grateful. Even if Conservative Back Benchers will be grinding their teeth at the thought of any changes to the judicial system, I think there needs to be greater acknowledgement of the fact that this issue will not go away.

Let me move on to clause 10 and the necessity test, which was an issue of real concern, as many Members on the Opposition side have confirmed. The Welsh Affairs Committee was concerned about it, and I believe the concerns were legitimate that this could be used to curb the powers of the National Assembly. Whether it be true or false, that was the perception. I am glad to see movement on that issue, and although the necessity test remains in part—it will be justified for cross-border and reserved matters—I am glad about the extent to which it has gone. That test seems to have been replaced—I use that word cautiously—by the justice impact assessment undertaken by the Welsh Government. In the spirit of devolution, the Bill says that that is done in the “way they see fit”, and presented with accompanying legislation. I note, however, that the Welsh Government have stated that the Assembly already has the potential to deal with that issue through their Standing Orders.

Quite where that assessment goes, I am unsure; and quite what the response from Westminster Ministers and officials from the Ministry of Justice to it will be, I am also unsure. What would it take for the intervention powers of a Secretary of State to be enacted? I am not sure. What would set in train the mechanism to go to the Supreme Court—something we want to avoid? I am not sure. I wrote this speech before I heard the opening remarks from the Secretary of State, who reassured us that this measure will not go anywhere, but that prompts the question as to why we need it, if the National Assembly can pursue that device through its Standing Orders. I seek reassurance from the Minister that there is nothing sinister that devolutionists like me and others on the Opposition Benches—and, to be fair, on the Government Benches—should be concerned about.

Is there any need for this provision, given that according to the First Minister the Assembly has the capacity to introduce its own impact assessment? I welcome the fact that there will be a joint Justice in Wales working group to consider that and other judicial matters, and to establish the protocol on judicial arrangements. The group’s objective is:

“To provide clear and efficient administrative arrangements for justice in Wales that fully reflect the distinctiveness of Wales—

I am surprised that the Wales Office allowed that word in the group’s remit, because we are all against distinctiveness or separation, but it is an encouraging sign—

“and the distinct body of Welsh law within the England and Wales justice system.”

I look forward to that report. I do not know what form it will be in, or whether there will be opportunities as work proceeds for people to come to the House or report to the Secretary of State, who will answer our questions. However, it is worrying that this Chamber will not consider the outcome of that work before the Bill goes to the other place. People may say that I cannot have it both ways—I cannot have the working group as well as the Bill coming speedily before the House—but I am reflecting on the quality of debate that we will have on such matters, if the body of expertise and officials are meeting and reaching conclusions, and we do not have the opportunity to respond to them as we proceed.

Recommendation 28 of Paul Silk’s report states that he believes we should hold a review within 10 years of devolving legislative responsibility for the Courts Service, sentencing, legal aid, the Crown Prosecution Service and the judiciary to the National Assembly. Let the remit of the working group be as broad as possible, and perhaps I will be reassured that it will consider those matters. If that is the case, the Secretary of State will have trumped—dare I use that word?—Paul Silk on timescales, which is to be welcomed.

The bulk of the Bill relates to schedule 2 and the detail of reserved matters. The Western Mail says one thing, and David Melding in the Welsh Assembly tells us that we are down from 250 to 200 reservations, which is a move in the right direction. We may have had the bonfire of the quangos, but that is not quite the bonfire of reservations that some of us had hoped for. A reserved powers model will inevitably involve a list, and we are told that 15 to 20 reservations have been taken out of the Bill—I do not know where those numbers are coming from—and that three more have been added. My elementary maths tells me that that is a positive of up to 17 reservations in our direction, but interestingly, the three added reservations concern the second Severn crossing, prostitution, and heating and cooling systems. Perhaps the Minister will enlighten us as to the rationale behind those three things.

I would also be interested to hear more about how the process was undertaken by the Wales Office, and the extent of the consultation when deciding on those reservations. The Select Committee made clear recommendations. It said that the Wales Office should go back and start the list again. Did that happen? I rather doubt it, given the time that elapsed between the publication of our report and the inception of the Bill.

We are where we are, and the Bill does represent a significant move forward. I would not be so churlish as to suggest that the last year has wasted the opportunities provided by the work of Paul Silk and the limitations of the St David’s Day agreement, because much has been learned on the back of the unfortunate draft legislation that followed. At the very least, it has taught the Government, and many in the House, that devolution is an important issue that will not go away, and that if we are to achieve a lasting settlement, the Government must do better: they must consult widely, and they must respond. They have done that to a degree, and I am therefore prepared to give the Bill cautious support at this stage. However, I do so on the understanding that the work of the working group is not peripheral but important, and that it will enhance our democratic processes rather than inhibiting them.

According to a press release issued by the Wales Office last week:

“The Wales Bill is in the finest traditions of Welsh radical reformers like Lloyd George.”

Neither I nor, I suspect, anyone in the Wales Office has had the benefit of Lloyd George’s wisdom on the Bill, literally or spiritually. The nearest that I got to Lloyd George was having tea with one of his daughters, a prominent lady in the constituency of the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams). However, notwithstanding what the Minister has said about the need for cross-party consensus—and I wish him well in that regard—I suspect that my party’s agenda is rather more in tune with the thinking of David Lloyd George than the Government’s.