Cathedrals Measure Diocesan Boards of Education Measure

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 13th April 2021 General Committees

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I will be very brief, which I am sure everyone will be absolutely delighted to hear, although I must say this room is considerably warmer than the last time I remember being here. I do not have any questions on the education measure. I very much welcome the Cathedrals Measure overall and particularly the importance of safeguarding. I think that is very important, particularly the reference to actually reporting the outcome of such cases should they arise.

Just a couple of points on clause 23 on the disposal of land. What happens where, for instance, somebody is actually still living on that land? Is this an improvement on what exists at the moment or is there not a formal structure?

Clause 23 refers to property that has been endowed. Is that from the Church to the cathedral or does that include third parties as well? If it does include third parties and if there was an argument over that, are the Church Commissioners the appropriate body to look at that? If it is only referring to the Church providing the cathedral with that, that would not really arise. I do not have any further questions.

[Andrew Selous]

Thank you very much, Mr Gray. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and particularly his welcome for the measures to improve safeguarding. The Archbishop of Canterbury is on record as being deeply apologetic about the Church of England’s abject failure in this area in the past, so it is absolutely incumbent on us to have the very best safeguarding procedures. I welcome what the hon. Gentleman has said, and we will endeavour to be as excellent as we possibly can in this area.

Turning to the disposal of land, if there were tenants or people living on that land, the Church of England would always seek to act in a sympathetic and appropriate way. The Commissioners have extensive land holdings up and down the country—commercial, to a lesser extent residential, and agricultural—and we pride ourselves on wanting to look after our tenants well. Obviously, this would be considered on a case-by-case basis, but having served on the board of the Commissioners for a year, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we take our responsibilities seriously when it comes to looking after our tenants.

[Mark Tami]

There are concerns about where people retire and then find themselves in a very different position: they do not have a home, and perhaps do not have the savings to purchase one. I know that is not within this particular measure.

[Andrew Selous]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s probing of this question. Although, as he said, it is slightly outside the scope of this measure, I know that where someone—like your very distinguished father, Mr Gray—has been a clergyman all their life and has moved from vicarage to vicarage, and then does not have their own property, the Church of England will provide property for that retired vicar and their family to live out their retirement in. Obviously, the ownership remains with the Church and will revert to the Church on their death, but I know of many examples where that has happened. Again, we take our responsibility to our clergy very seriously, and want to be a good employer.

Turning to the disposal of land gifted to a cathedral, again, it is probably a little bit difficult for me to comment without particular examples in front of us, but the Church would always seek to follow property law properly. We would always look at the intentions of the settlor in leaving the land to the Church. The Church does dispose of land from time to time—in my own diocese of St Albans, I know that Church land has been sold to provide the funding for our local multi-academy trust—so the Church very much does put its money where its mouth is to support mission and its current objectives.

[Mark Tami]

The fact that that provision is there obviously seems to imply that there may have been problems in the past. That is all I am saying.

[Andrew Selous]

The hon. Gentleman is right that the Church, like any institution run by human beings, has clearly not got everything right in the past. However, from all my dealings with the property department at Church House, I know that they try very hard to do the right thing, as I also know from my correspondence with hon. Members about Church land in their constituencies—I have an ongoing correspondence with a number of Members in this area. The property department is accountable to the Board of Governors of the Church Commissioners. I sit there as a representative of Parliament, taking up the concerns of Members of Parliament, so I say to the hon. Gentleman, members of this Committee and Members of the House that if they have any concerns of this nature—that the Church might not be acting in the most appropriate or sensitive way—please get in touch with me, and I will take those concerns up. I hope the hon. Gentleman is satisfied with that.

Question put and agreed to.

DIOCESAN BOARDS OF EDUCATION MEASURE

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the Diocesan Boards of Education Measure (HC 1259).—(Andrew Selous.)