Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Spencer and Philip Davies

Thursday 30th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mark Spencer]

As the hon. Gentleman indicates, this is a very important issue. We have not made a statement today because there is an ongoing criminal investigation. I do not want to jeopardise that criminal investigation, because these are very serious allegations. The Food Standards Agency has responsibility in this area. I met the chair of the FSA last week. I continue to meet representatives of the meat industry—I met them this month and do so on a regular basis. We will keep a close eye on the investigation and leave it to the FSA to deliver criminal prosecution.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

T6. Some people particularly want to buy halal and kosher meat and some people particularly do not want to buy halal and kosher meat, so will the Government ensure that it must be properly labelled at the point of sale, so that people who particularly want to buy it or particularly do not want to buy it are able to make an informed decision?

[Mark Spencer]

The fundamental principle of food labelling rules is that information provided to consumers must not mislead. Based on evidence provided from a 2021 call for evidence on food labelling for animal welfare, we are still considering how to move forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Spencer and Philip Davies

Thursday 12th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

T4. Some people particularly want to buy halal and kosher meat, and some people particularly want to avoid doing so. Is it not time to properly label all these products appropriately, so that consumers, whether they want to buy this or do not want to buy it, can make an informed decision?

[The Minister for Food, Farming and Fisheries (Mark Spencer)]

The Government have committed to consult on mandatory labelling reforms this year. We want to make it easier for consumers to purchase products aligned with their values. As part of the consultation, we will seek views on labelling products that conform with religious requirements, such as those that are halal and kosher.

Business of the House

Debate between Mark Spencer and Philip Davies

Thursday 26th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mark Spencer]

I join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating Dunfermline on securing city status, but I think that is as far as I can go in agreeing with him. He speaks of what he says is the one topic that everybody wants to debate, but my experience is that people are sick and tired of hearing about it. They want the Government to focus on what actually matters to them—the global fight against inflation and an aggressive Russian state invading Ukraine and causing huge ripples around the world in energy and food prices. The hon. Gentleman says that that is the one topic that people want to debate, but it is the only topic that he wants to talk about. I thought he might have congratulated the First Minister on becoming the longest-serving First Minister in Scotland. After seven years, he might want to accept some responsibility for the disastrous performance of the Scottish Government and what we have seen in Scotland. They have let down schoolchildren; one academic in Scotland has said that

“governing became the servant of campaigning”.

That is why their education system is in tatters and drug deaths are at their highest level, and have been for seven years in a row. That says everything about SNP Members: they are more interested in stoking division and trying to challenge the Union than delivering for their constituents.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I am obviously delighted that your campaign paid off, Madam Deputy Speaker, and Doncaster got city status, as I was born and brought up there. Next week, the Government will announce the city of culture 2025. One of the four finalists in that competition is Bradford. Were Bradford to win that accolade, it would build on the strong cultural offer it already has, including the Brontës in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore), the world heritage site of Saltaire in my constituency and the fact that Bradford was the first ever UNESCO city of film. Given that the House will not be sitting next week, and that winning would provide a huge boost to the whole district, which has been overlooked for far too long, and to the city, which has been punching below its weight for far too long, will the Leader of the House speak to his Cabinet colleague, the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and join me in lobbying her to announce that Bradford is the city of culture 2025?

[Mark Spencer]

I trust that my hon. Friend was in his place for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport questions this morning to lobby the Secretary of State directly.

[Philip Davies]

I did not get called.

[Mark Spencer]

Well, I cannot speak for Madam Deputy Speaker in failing to call the hon. Gentleman. We are always pleased to hear from him and I am surprised that he did not get called. Of course, I wish Bradford well and the other three cities that are bidding for city of culture. We await with anticipation the announcement of which city it will be. I am sure that whichever is the winner, it will be a great opportunity to visit and see the culture of that city.

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between Mark Spencer and Philip Davies

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Philip Davies]

No, I do not agree with that at all. I will come on to this point in a bit more detail soon, but the hon. Lady is forgetting something. The big supermarkets, without a shadow of a doubt, are massive companies that have hundreds of stores in their chains. By definition, a viable supplier to a supermarket chain has to be a very big company as well, otherwise it would not have the wherewithal to supply all the supermarket’s branches. When I get to the detail of my new clauses, I will talk about the thresholds that the Bill should apply. She will see that far from it being the case that vast supermarkets are being awful to very small suppliers, many of the suppliers are bigger than the supermarkets that they are supplying. She ought to bear that in mind.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

My hon. Friend misunderstands the whole supply chain in the UK. There are organisations that provide hubs to supply supermarkets, but those hubs are supplied by very small primary producers such as family firms. Those firms are microscopic in comparison with the supermarkets.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. If he has a big problem with the middleman, so to speak, for example in the dairy industry, he should pursue his complaint with the middleman, rather than having a go at the supermarket.

The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) made a point about special offers. There is a view that supermarkets have been forcing suppliers against their will to do special offers, such as buy one, get one free or buy three for two. Let me tell the House, as somebody who has worked in this environment, what happens in the real world, rather than in the invented world that people want to talk about.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) is here and he will know what happens as well as I do because he worked for Asda at the same time as I did. He will recall that, before I left, Asda decided that it did not want to do special offers any more and that it would have no special offers in its stores. It did not want any buy one, get one frees or three for twos. It asked its suppliers instead to just sell it the product at an everyday low price and to put what they would have invested in a promotion into providing that price. It was not companies such as Asda that were forcing suppliers to do buy one, get one frees; suppliers were falling over themselves to do special offers in the supermarkets and to get their products in the promotional areas.

Some of those firms have massive marketing budgets. They have marketing budgets that supermarkets would love to have. They use that budget to do offers such as buy one get one free or three for the price of two. They are trying to persuade people who buy Daz for their washing, for example, to move to Persil. To persuade people to do so, they give them a buy-one-get-one-free offer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

As ever, my hon. Friend is eagle-eyed. The amendments are the same, but the purpose of tabling two was to give the House a choice, because as it happened, I envisaged the interventions that the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) has made.

At Asda, we found huge reluctance on the part of suppliers to stop special offers. They lobbied Asda for ever to do more and more of them to promote their brands, and an everyday low price did not offer them the same marketing opportunity.

[Mr Spencer]

I applaud my hon. Friend’s campaign to get his whites whiter, but he must recognise that there is a fundamental difference between a supplier of a brand of washing powder and a supplier of a cauliflower, carrot or parsnip, because it is not possible to brand a carrot or a cauliflower.

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and again, I take his intervention as a signal that he will support my amendment. That brings us on to the nub—

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker, and you are absolutely right, as ever. My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) seems to indicate that he is prepared to support new clauses 1 and 2, and I will be grateful to him for that. It seems that the longer we go on, the more support I am garnering for my case, so I am encouraged to go on a bit longer.

[Mr Spencer]

My hon. Friend will recognise that putting a figure on turnover as suggested in the new clauses would mean that there was a difference between somebody supplying a low-value product such as a carrot and somebody supplying a high-value product such as a bottle of champagne. If we were to put a firm figure in the Bill, as time and inflation moved inevitably forward, that figure would become smaller and smaller in real terms and small and medium-sized enterprises would be dragged over the threshold.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend appears to be indicating that he prefers new clause 2 to new clause 1, which further persuades me that I should seek to press new clause 2 to a Division, if you allow me to do so, Mr Speaker.

The Bill was sold to people on the back of what I believe was a false premise—the idea that supermarkets are screwing suppliers into the ground remorselessly and hoping that as many of them as possible will go bust. It is a completely nonsensical argument.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, which strikes at the heart of new clauses 1 and 2. We can argue about the necessity of the Bill, and as far as I am concerned it is not only unnecessary—as my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) made clear, there are no complaints about the existing code, so it is a solution looking for a problem—but the most unconservative-minded thing that we could possibly see. I have no problem with the Liberal Democrats supporting it, because of course they are always a left-wing tribe, but I am worried that members of my own party are supporting this intervention in the free markets.

Two companies, free to make their own decisions, are making agreements and signing a contract, and then we in the House think that we should intervene in that contract that they have both entered into freely and say, “By the way, we don’t think you should have signed that contract.” I have always thought that companies are more than capable of deciding those things for themselves.

[Mr Spencer]

Again, my hon. Friend misunderstands the concept of what the groceries code adjudicator is intended to achieve, which is related to exactly the point that he has just made. When an agreement has been made between two parties, if both sides stick to it there is no problem, but there is a problem when one side tries to change that agreement and goes back on it at a later date.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and he seems to make the point that the Bill is totally unnecessary. I am not a lawyer—my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and for Bury North are, and I will happily bow to their expertise—but it seems to me as a layman that if two sides sign a contract and one side then breaks it, there are already laws in place to ensure that the matter can be seen through in the courts. The courts ensure that contracts entered into voluntarily are honoured, so we do not need to do that. The Office of Fair Trading already looks after the groceries code, which deals with these matters anyway.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

This is a red letter day for me, because I now have another volunteer to support my new clause 1 and new clause 2, which I will come on to in a second. The hon. Gentleman may well not have read them and therefore may have intervened inadvertently, but when he actually finds out what is in new clause 1 and new clause 2—if I am ever allowed to get on to that—he will find that he agrees with the point I am making. I do not agree with the principle of the Bill; I am the first to make that clear, and that relates to the purpose of new clause 3. On new clause 1 and new clause 2, the Bill was sold on the premise articulated by the hon. Gentleman—we have big supermarkets that are in a vastly preferential situation to very small suppliers, and that the House should be looking after those very small suppliers where they face problems. That is the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s point, and that is what my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood is indicating. That is how the purpose of the Bill was sold.

I believe the Bill is totally unnecessary, but I am the first to accept that that is a minority view and that it will go ahead. My new clauses seek to ensure that the Bill hits its given purpose—to look after the small suppliers that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood is rightly keen to look after. I do not disparage him for that. Currently, the Bill will not just look after the small suppliers that my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) are so concerned about; it will give an avenue for complaint to all suppliers of supermarkets, whatever their size. All I can do is reiterate the fact that the vast majority of suppliers to supermarkets are huge companies in their own right, and that some of them are bigger than the supermarkets they supply.

Let us make no bones about it. One way or another, the suppliers—whether in terms of special offers, deals or whatever—hope that ultimately the adjudicator will deliver a benefit to their bottom line. Suppliers hope, through whichever avenue, that this will ensure that they have a healthier bottom line.

[Mr Spencer]

My hon. Friend must also recognise that the role of the groceries code adjudicator is as a referee. If a large corporation—we all know they exist—is in a trading disagreement with a supermarket, then the supermarket could use the groceries code adjudicator to make sure that it gets a fair deal from that large supplier.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes his point. As it happens, I am a Conservative. I know it is an old-fashioned view these days in the Conservative party, but I believe in the free market. Companies such as Asda, Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsbury’s are big enough to look after themselves. They do not need a referee to look after a contract on their behalf against any supplier; big companies are more than capable of doing that themselves. My hon. Friend may take the point that it is the role of Parliament to intervene in every contract negotiation between two companies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Spencer]

Again, my hon. Friend is misrepresenting the role of the groceries code adjudicator. When a deal is done between two suppliers, whether large or small, as long as it is stuck to, there will be no role for the adjudicator. Those large companies can do their negotiations, and those deals will stand fast. The adjudicator would get involved only when the supermarket goes back and tries to change the original agreement. That is its role.

[Philip Davies]

So my hon. Friend does not think that Procter & Gamble is big enough to look after itself. He thinks poor little Procter & Gamble—that poor mite—needs a state adjudicator to intervene on its behalf because it might find itself at the wrong end of an unfair negotiation with a supermarket.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Bill would still allow Walkers to screw the potato suppliers—who provide the raw materials—into the ground as much as it liked, but it would prevent Asda, for example, from trying to negotiate the best deal with Walkers for its crisps.

I have mentioned Coca-Cola. I also wonder whether Heinz Ltd would really need to take a complaint to an adjudicator. Is Heinz not big enough to look after itself? Why on earth are we passing legislation to intervene in disputes between big supermarkets and big suppliers such as Heinz, Diageo, United Biscuits, Kraft Foods, Nestlé, Premier Foods, Fullers Foods, Britvic Soft Drinks Ltd and Mars? Are we really saying that the House must set up a state regulator to intervene in negotiations or disputes between massive multinational companies? Those companies have recourse to the courts if they feel that a contract has been breached. Are we really saying that Heinz does not have the wherewithal to take a case to court if it feels that a supplier has dealt with it unfairly? Does anyone want to stand up and say that Heinz does not have the wherewithal to take such a case to court? Who wants to make that point?

[Mr Spencer]

rose—

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend does.

[Mr Spencer]

I will happily challenge my hon. Friend on that point. Those large companies have the ability to negotiate deals, and those deal will be stuck to. The groceries code adjudicator will not get involved in those kinds of negotiations. The adjudicator will have a role to play when a supermarket tries to go back on a deal and change it at a later date.

[Philip Davies]

We all know that that is the case, but my point is that if companies such as Heinz, Walkers, Nestlé or Coca-Cola feel that a supermarket has breached a contract with them, they can take the case to court. We do not need the state to set up an adjudicator to decide which side is right. As it happens, I am quite relaxed about supermarkets trying to screw those big suppliers into the ground to get the best possible deal. Those suppliers are making massive profits, and I would prefer to see that money benefiting my constituents rather than adding to the bottom line of those multinational companies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

My amendment does not seek to restrict the remit only to very small suppliers but to suppliers with a turnover of up to £1 billion; surely my hon. Friend cannot argue that a supplier with a turnover of £950 million is a very small supplier.

[Mr Spencer]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, as it allows me to clarify that that is my exact point. At no point will there be such a negotiation, as this is not a David and Goliath situation. We are talking about two Goliaths, so the adjudicator will have no role. My hon. Friend has made a career of criticising unnecessary legislation and it seems strange that he should now want to introduce an unnecessary clause into a Bill. I hope that he recognises that new clause 2 would not be necessary simply because the adjudicator will not have a role in negotiating between two Goliaths.

Anonymity (Arrested Persons) Bill

Debate between Mark Spencer and Philip Davies

Friday 4th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I do not intend to speak for too long, but I feel the need to be here to support my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), not only because her constituency is adjacent to mine, but because her Bill has great merit. She will be aware of how busy I am in my constituency office, given the debate over the forestry proposals and the fact that my constituency is Sherwood. None the less, I feel the need to be here to support her Bill. This matter truly requires more debate. Although I am committed to supporting the Bill in the hope that it can make further progress, today’s debate has shown that there clearly is a balance to be struck. I will try to address that balance during the next few minutes.

The case in Bristol, which my hon. Friend mentioned, was a good example of how the furore around such cases can develop its own momentum and take on a life of its own. Of course, this was not a good thing in that case, but we have heard of cases in which the opposite was true. I recognise that the Bill aims to limit the ability of the media to go off on their own mission, but I also like the fact that other clauses would assist people in getting names out in the media, if that would be of benefit. That is really important. There have been a number of cases in which an accused individual received publicity that allowed other members of the public to come forward and say, “Actually, I have been affected by this individual as well.” That enabled the police to build a case against that person.

Fundamentally, this debate comes down to a balance between what is interesting to the public and what is in the public interest. That is very difficult to legislate for. When I was a teenager in Nottingham in the 1980s, there was a real issue with the red light district in the city. Nottinghamshire police ran a great campaign to arrest people who were kerb crawling. The Nottingham Evening Post would then print the names of the individuals who had been arrested, and I could never resist buying it just to see whose names were in it that week.

[Philip Davies]

Was my hon. Friend looking to see whether his name had been published?

[Mr Spencer]

Unfortunately, as a 15-year-old boy, I could not get there on my scooter. Clearly publishing those names was interesting to the public, but was it in the public interest? The honest answer is: probably not. Did it add anything to the criminal justice system? Probably not.