Employment Opportunities Bill

Debate between Mark Prisk and Edward Leigh

Friday 17th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Prisk]

My hon. Friend is a few inches ahead of me, but he is right that that is the kernel of the argument on clause 3.

Let me give a little background, and then I shall address specifically how we expand our provisions and encourage young people in training and apprenticeships. The point about the apprenticeship rate is that it recognises that employers invest significantly in apprenticeships, and that apprentices—quite naturally, given where they are in their working cycle—are less productive than other skilled employees. In addition, young people who complete an apprenticeship derive significant long-term advantages. They know that by accepting a lower wage when training, they will enjoy future higher earnings and better job security. That fits into another Government policy, namely the significant expansion of apprenticeship places—we have increased spending by £250 million to encourage 75,000 extra places.

Is a training wage such as the one in clause 3 feasible? The clause states that someone who is contractually entitled to a training wage, and to training in skills relevant to their employment, does not qualify for the national minimum wage. However, the Bill does not specify what would be an appropriate training wage level. As the Bill stands—that is all we have to debate—employers would therefore be free to pay a training wage at any rate. In addition, individuals receiving those low wages would, as workers, be carrying out work or services for the employer.

The danger is that the provisions could be open to widespread abuse by unscrupulous employers—that small minority that look to pay exploitatively low wages.

[Mr Leigh]

Before the Minister finishes this part of his speech, will he deal with the points I made about the scandal of internships? The problem, which is now more widespread, is that employers are paying nothing to graduates.

[Mr Prisk]

I will come to internships later. It is important that we get right the balance between internships and work experience.

I want to continue my point about training. Another problem with the Bill is that what is meant by

“an entitlement to training from the employer in skills relevant to the employment”

is unclear. A contractual entitlement to training does not mean that the worker is actually receiving any useful training. Under the Bill, for example, a worker could, if they were working in, let us say, a cold-call centre, undertake that work—that would be allowed—because it could be deemed the best way to learn on the job and be trained. In other words, if an individual’s work involved cold-calling, they could become skilled, as described in the Bill, simply by doing the job, and not actually having a separate training programme with accreditation requirements. The question then is: would this mean that they are entitled to a minimum wage? The Bill is unclear. Under the Bill, two people doing the same job could have different contracts. Consequently, one would be entitled to the minimum wage, but the other, having a contract for a training wage, would not. The danger therefore is that these provisions could be open to abuse.

I turn to the question of how we could go beyond apprenticeships. This involves the question of whether we have some form of accreditation, which is a real problem that the Bill does not seem to address. Were we to have accredited training in certain circumstances, we would probably end up going down the route of the old development rate, which was set out in 2006, and under which there were complex rules and conditions seeking to determine exactly what the training was. That would create real problems for employers, who would want to know what the conditions were and how they would work. Would the opportunities they are providing qualify for the training wage? We would have all these grey areas and loopholes sitting between the existing minimum wage and the training wage. That is a practical problem about which I, as a former employer in the private sector—obviously I remain an employer as a Member of Parliament—would be very anxious. I would not want to find that I am unintentionally breaking the rules or finding that the guidance from the Government has to be so specific and complex that I spend too much time trying to comply with a new set of regulations, when in fact the original system was simpler—so there are real practical problems with this suggestion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Prisk]

No. Let me spell out exactly what I said—and put it back on the record for a second time. We are clear that those who are entitled to the national minimum wage should receive it. That is the point; that is how the law stands.

[Mr Leigh]

This issue is important, because we are talking about people who are being exploited. They are working 60 to 80 hours a week for big companies, big legal firms or big merchant banks all over the place, and they are being exploited. They are not training; they are working, and they should get paid. The Government should step in and do something about it.

[Mr Prisk]

I understand that, but as we have heard today, the Government are strongly of the belief that we should ensure that where people are entitled to the minimum wage, they should receive it. However, we would not want to intrude in the more informal areas that several Members have described, such as a week of work experience, and so on.

[Mr Leigh]

They work for six months.

[Mr Prisk]

My hon. Friend has made a powerful point about those working longer term. We want to ensure that the law is upheld.

Before I return to clause 1, which deals with the unlawful prevention of employment, let me turn to the four clauses at the back end of the Bill, namely clauses 4 to 8. These relate to the regional minimum wage, the idea being that we should move away from a national rate, towards a more flexible, regional structure. It is worth looking briefly at how the existing law works. Under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, workers of compulsory school age are entitled to be paid at least the national minimum wage, although there are some exceptions. Different treatment may be permitted in relation to different sectors of employment and for people of different occupations. However, having different areas poses practical problems.

Clause 4 sets out the role of the Low Pay Commission. It provides that the commission

“must consider and take evidence on the availability of employment opportunities and the impact of the national minimum wage on job creation and access to employment in…areas where the average level of unemployment in the preceding year has been above the national average”.

The commission must then

“consider in the light of that assessment whether to recommend that the minimum wage in any such area should be set at a level below the national minimum wage.”

It is not clear from clause 4 what happens if a lower minimum wage is applied to a travel-to-work area and the unemployment level of that area subsequently falls below the national average. We presume—although it is unclear from the Bill—that the lower minimum wage could no longer apply, and that the national minimum wage would therefore apply. It is also not clear whether the Bill envisages more than one lower minimum wage rate. For example, would the same lower rate apply regardless of the extent to which average unemployment in an area was greater than the national average?

Clause 5 sets out the duties of the Secretary of State in the event of the Low Pay Commission recommending that the minimum wage in a particular area should be set at a level below the national minimum wage. Perhaps peculiarly, clause 5 provides that the Secretary of State has no discretion in the matter, but must make regulations to bring the commission’s recommendations into force. I note that this is different from the Secretary of State’s position in respect of the national minimum wage, where it is for him to decide on the appropriate rate, based on the Low Pay Commission’s recommendations. It is unclear why the Secretary of State should have the discretion to implement the commission’s recommendations on the national minimum wage, which would affect around 1 million people, but not where its recommendations could affect a far smaller number of people.

Clause 6 provides that a change to the minimum wage in an area to a level below the national minimum wage would not affect existing contracts of employment. I will come to the issue of fairness later; I merely note now that this provision is another instance of allowing an employer to pay two workers different wages for doing the same job. It could also encourage employers to get rid of workers who were being paid at the national minimum wage and replace them with people paid at a lower rate.

Clause 7 presents significant practical challenges. It provides that a travel-to-work area is

“an area so defined by the Office for National Statistics.”

This point is crucial, because it affects the way in which the final four clauses operate. Ideally, a self-contained labour market is one in which all the commuting occurs within the boundary of that area. However, in practice it is not possible to divide the UK neatly into separate labour markets based on commuting patterns. They are just too diffuse. Our concern is that the opportunity for complexity and continuous change would make the operation of the proposed system significantly more challenging than at present. Speaking as an employer—which I continue to be—I am concerned about how this would work within and on the edges of those regions.

There are currently 243 travel-to-work areas. They were defined in 2007 using the old 2001 census data, so there is already a problem of time delay. The areas vary considerably in size. For example, Anglesey has two such areas, while Greater London has only one. I hope that no one will ask me why, because I do not have the answer. If we moved to a system of regional rates based on travel-to-work areas, the real problem would be the complexity that that would generate for employers. As someone who wants to see less regulation, I would be very much opposed to that. I hope that the House will acknowledge the specific practical problems associated with each of the clauses, especially relating to the way in which this part of the Bill would operate.

Clause 1 deals not with the minimum wage but with the question of unlawful prevention in relation to foreign nationals. It relates to foreign nationals above compulsory school age who are legally residing in the UK, and provides that such individuals shall not be prevented from undertaking paid employment unless certain conditions apply. The first condition is where the foreign national has only a visitor’s visa. The second is where the foreign national’s most recent application for entry into the UK has been refused. The third is that the foreign national’s most recent application to stay in the UK has been refused. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, I noticed the typo in subsection (4), for which he has graciously apologised. The effect of the subsection as drafted would be to exempt foreign nationals who were not in detention. The problem that that would create is self-evident.

The Government support the principle that everyone of working age who has the legal right to work in this country should have the opportunity to gain a living by work which they freely accept. That is set out in article 6 of the international convention on economic, social and cultural rights, and the Government are committed to fulfilling our obligations under the convention. The problem is that the provisions in the Bill are contrary to the Immigration Act 1971. The fact that the Bill does not provide for the repeal of the relevant provisions of the Act raises an important technical issue. When we debate these Bills, we are debating whether they should become the law of the land. While I understand that points of principle are involved, we also need to ensure that we get the legislation right.

Regional Development (North-East)

Debate between Mark Prisk and Edward Leigh

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Prisk]

With respect to the hon. Lady, I have three minutes left. She did not make a contribution to the debate, and I must respond to hon. Members who spoke.

On the balance, there are challenges in the north-east, and no one denies that, but we should recognise that manufacturing there is doing well. A survey by British Chambers of Commerce shows that for the most recent quarter manufacturing grew most quickly in the north-east out of all the regions. Hon. Members have rightly referred to the decision on Tata Steel and Sahaviriya Steel Industries, and we hope that it will progress in the next few days or weeks, so that the agreement that was tragically mothballed a while back will be developed. Some 800 jobs will be created at the site, which will sit alongside the existing 700 jobs, but that is not all. There is a £420 million investment by Nissan, and the Hitachi development in County Durham, which are very welcome and very important.

I turn to RDAs and LEPs, where there may be a difference. No one denies that the RDAs, including One NorthEast, made successful and worthwhile ventures during their time—I accept that—but in 11 years, that agency received £2.7 billion to spend, and the reality is that the gap between the north-east and elsewhere grew. The reality of the gross value added—the measure per person—is that when it started it was approximately 83% of the national average in the north-east. Eleven years later, having spent £2.7 billion, it fell to 78%. It has not only not improved, but gone backwards.

There is a challenge, and the two partnerships that have been created, which I greatly welcome and am looking forward to meeting tomorrow and Thursday, have an opportunity to address their local priorities rather than what we think is best for them, which is an important shift. They can work together, as my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) has rightly pointed out, because they do not need Government permission to do so. I have every confidence that the business and civic communities will make that alliance and work together. We will set out the specific actions that they will be able to undertake. I will respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar in writing about the regional growth fund.

The enterprise zones, which my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) has campaigned on—

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order.