House of Lords Reform Bill

Mark Lazarowicz Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I know that my hon. Friend speaks with sincerity, but does he really think there will ever come a time when somebody will not cite some particular issue—national or international—as a reason for not having this discussion about the House of Lords? It will always be the wrong time; there will always be more important issues for some people.

[Mr Robinson]

I take my hon. Friend’s point and accept it, but this is not really a priority. If we accept that the language of politics or the art of government are about achieving our priorities and managing the problems that are in the way of achieving them, I cannot see the House of Lords as a big problem at the moment. It really is not. It may well be an anachronism with its robes, its frumpery and all that; yes, I would love to get rid of it. For those who want reform, as I do, however, the proposals put forward by Lord Steel seem to deal with the matter. They seem to deal adequately with all my principal objections to how the House of Lords works, how it is constituted and how it deals with various aspects of ritual that people either like or do not like. The proposals deal with it all. If we had a set of provisions broadly based on what Lord Steel had proposed, I believe that we could have gained cross-party agreement, but we have not got that. We have a dog’s breakfast of a Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

This is a complex Bill, but at its heart there is of course a simple principle that those who make the laws for the people should be elected by the people, and that is why I shall certainly support the Bill’s Second Reading.

That principle of election, if it is to be made as real and as complete as possible, also requires accountability, and that is why I have grave reservations about the proposals for 15-year terms with no possibility of re-election. I shall look for amendments to that as the Bill makes its way—eventually—through the House.

I also do not see why election requires 450 Members in the reformed upper House. At an earlier stage, it was suggested that 300 would be sufficient, but even that is on the high side. If the new House is to have Members with a revising role but no constituency responsibilities, it does not need anything like the suggested 450 Members, and, if the number of Members of a second House were lower, some of the cost objections that have been raised would be less powerful both in this House in debate and in a referendum.

I support the principle of election, so I also agree with Opposition colleagues who argue against reserved places for Church of England bishops. Many bishops who attend the Lords do offer an independent and critical voice, and it has challenged over-mighty Governments of all parties, but such a challenge should come from those whose authority to speak is derived from election, not from appointment. As many Members have pointed out, the additional objection is that, by giving a privileged place to leaders of one faith group, we discriminate against every other faith group, let alone against agnostics and atheists.

I am glad that the programme motion has been sent away for another day, because it limited, as is normal, not only the total number of days for debate, but the subject for debate on each day. So there were bound to have been occasions when, because of statements or whatever, and after Front Benchers’ speeches, perhaps only six, seven, eight, nine or 10 Back Benchers would have been able to join in the debate, and that would have been unacceptable on an issue about which so many Members have strong views.

[Mr Tom Clarke]

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the Bill, in many cases and in many places, is opaque? For example, it does not indicate whether, in the other House that is going to emerge, Members will even be paid during the parliamentary recess. Given that so many questions are bound to be asked, it would be ridiculous to confine ourselves to a particular time limit.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Indeed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said, given that the Bill might end up in exactly the same format going through under the Parliament Act procedures, it is vital that we get it right first time while it is here. It would be ironic if a measure that is designed to improve scrutiny ended up restricting scrutiny here in this Chamber.

The programme motion has been taken away, but that does not necessarily mean that the Bill will not go through this place, although it will certainly take longer to do so. If it does not go through, that will not be because of actions on the part of Labour Members, as some Liberal Democrat Members have suggested; it will be because the Conservative side of the coalition has pulled the rug from under its Lib Dem partners, and the Lib Dems will have to draw their own conclusions about the future of the coalition.

I want to say a few words in support of the call for a referendum. I have not always been as enthusiastic as some colleagues about the case for referendums on almost any constitutional change, but it is now broadly accepted that any major constitutional change should be submitted for endorsement to those it affects. Having seen referendums approved for much less significant changes than this one, I cannot see any argument against a referendum ultimately being agreed to as part of a final requirement of endorsement by the people.

I suspect that the real argument as to why the Government—certainly the Liberal Democrats—are against a referendum is that they fear, particularly after the experience of the AV referendum, that they would lose it. I draw a different conclusion from that experience from that which some Liberal Democrats seem to have reached. I supported AV and campaigned for it. However, in the case of the AV referendum, hardly anyone who campaigned for AV really believed that it was the ideal solution, and they did not give it any enthusiastic support. That is the danger that will face the Government if and when this matter comes to a referendum. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. There is too much background noise—please keep it to a minimum.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

The Bill is in danger of being a measure that does not have the kind of popular support that would be required. The answer to that problem is not to do away with the idea of a referendum but to improve it to make it more radical and democratic. We should make those changes during the course of the Bill’s passage through this House, and I will certainly support that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

This has been a fascinating debate for Members of the House, but perhaps a perplexing one for the public. A recent study by Democratic Audit showed that the public are increasingly distrustful of our political institutions and of corporate power, and are saying in ever-larger numbers that we face a crisis of democracy. That speaks to one conclusion: there must be a major democratic resettlement, with democratic reform of the second Chamber a key component.

Labour has always recognised that a programme of radical economic and social justice in government can take place alongside strong political reform. In the second general election of 1910, Keir Hardie stood for re-election in Merthyr Tydfil on a manifesto of introducing a minimum wage, home rule, votes for women and ending, not mending, the House of Lords. At the last election, our prescription for the democratic chasm that is the unelected second Chamber was a different one, and I am proud to stand tonight on an agenda of putting a wholly elected second Chamber to the people of the country in a referendum.

As the Executive have tightened their control over this House, a democratic second Chamber to offer an enhanced check and balance has become increasingly vital. We need only heed the lessons from Scotland, where the Scottish National party has been able to exert complete command over the single-chamber Scottish Parliament and all its Committees through an overall majority obtained with 45% of the vote at the last Scottish general election, even under a system of proportional representation. Unicameralism without electoral reform or a redistribution of power between Parliament and the judiciary would risk strengthening Executive power in Parliament, far from limiting it.

The current unelected second Chamber is a hangover from a mediaeval era of democratic illegitimacy. It has mushroomed from 666 Members in 1999, when nine out of 10 hereditary peers were ejected, to more than 830 now. The other place is one of only three second chambers in the world, alongside those in Kazakhstan and Burkina Faso, whose size outstrips that of the first chamber.

The second Chamber is also wholly unrepresentative of the modern United Kingdom. It fails to provide a sufficiently strong voice to the different nations and regions of the UK, as well as to working-class people, young people, the disabled, women, ethnic minorities and the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.

We are told that an unelected Chamber is more independent-minded than this partisan House, but a detailed analysis of results in the other place between 1999 and 2006, by Meg Russell of University college London’s constitution unit, shows that the Government were more likely to suffer a defeat because of partisan voting than because of the presence of independents in the second Chamber.

In February, 71% of people outside this House backed the principle that those who make the laws should do so on some form of electoral mandate, and 39% believed that the unelected principle should end entirely. The Bill is far from perfect, which is why it needs more scrutiny than the Government were prepared to concede before this afternoon. A 15-year term without a right of recall is an odd mandate to confer upon an elected Member, and the Bill still reserves seats for clergy from the Church of England. The UK would remain one of only two legislatures in the world, along with Iran’s, to continue such religious representation, even though 60% of the public say that bishops should not sit in Parliament.

I suspect that a long tussle faces this House and the other place.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

My hon. Friend refers to a long tussle. Is it not fair to say that it is right that there should be such a long tussle and long debate, precisely because the Bill would make such a fundamental change?