Rail Services from and to Scotland

Mark Lazarowicz Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I welcome Members to our debate this afternoon.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you very much, Mr Hollobone. It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair today. I take this opportunity to extend the compliments of the season to you and other Members, and to members of our staff in the room today.

I am very glad to have this opportunity to raise a number of issues concerning rail services in Scotland. For the most part, rail services within Scotland are a devolved responsibility of the Scottish Government, and I certainly do not wish—and would not be allowed by you, Chair—to deal with matters under that devolved responsibility. However, there are some important aspects of rail in Scotland for which policy or legislation is made at UK level, and I wish to raise those today.

The first issue is the future of cross-border rail services, and perhaps today is a very appropriate time to raise it, given that over the Christmas and new year period many passengers will be using the services to visit family and friends both north and south of the border. At present, the cross-border services fall under the franchise arrangements controlled by the Department for Transport, with its responsibility for services throughout Great Britain. However, those arrangements are now under threat, as a result of proposals put forward by the Scottish Government’s transport agency, Transport Scotland. As part of options for the future of rail services in Scotland, Transport Scotland is

“considering whether services north of Edinburgh should be provided by the Scottish franchisee, with Edinburgh becoming an interchange hub for cross-border services in the east of the country. In this scenario cross-border services would terminate at Edinburgh Waverley, with onward connections being provided by ScotRail.”

As a result of the cross-border services stopping at Edinburgh and Glasgow, there would be no through trains from England to destinations further north, such as Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness to name just a few. For that to happen, I understand that the Scottish Government would have to get the agreement of the UK Government to change the franchise arrangements, so today I want to raise my concerns about that possibility, in the hope that the Minister of State will listen to Members and will herself express reservations about the proposal. I also express my concerns today in the hope that Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government will listen.

At present, there are seven trains a day from England to destinations north of Edinburgh and Glasgow—plus the sleeper services, about which I will speak later—which provide through links, not just on the east coast line to London but on the west coast line to the English midlands and the south and south-west of England. Seven trains does not sound like many, but that is perhaps 2,000 plus seats a day, and is equal to perhaps 20 planes or 500 cars. I, and many others in Scotland, and indeed in England, believe that if the proposals result in the termination of cross-border services at Edinburgh and Glasgow, they are a serious mistake.

The option suggests that there would be an “interchange hub” at Edinburgh, but that is not a good idea. Edinburgh Waverley, as anyone who uses it will know, is a large station with about 20 platforms at the last count, and one could well imagine passengers, particularly the more frail, taking at least 15 minutes to change trains, allowing for time to go through the ticket barriers of the different operators. There is also considerable building and renovation work going on, which is likely to cause extra disruption for years to come. For passengers travelling long distances, who are more likely to have more luggage, having to change trains in Edinburgh would be extremely inconvenient and add to journey times.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this important topic. Does he not agree that, given that 26% of the Scottish economy is based in the Aberdeen area, as a result of the oil and gas industry, it would be incredibly short-sighted in terms of not only general social traffic but economic traffic to stop cross-border trains going up to Aberdeen and beyond?

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Absolutely. As a regular user of east coast trains, sometimes using the services that go through to Aberdeen, I know that they are very well used. I have had feedback from the business community in Edinburgh, speaking not just for Edinburgh but more widely, about the potentially very damaging consequences for Scotland’s economic interests, because of the effect both on business travel and on the wider travel services between important parts of the Scottish and UK economies.

Another feature of Transport Scotland’s proposals that concerns me is the suggestion that having all journeys in Scotland north of the central belt run by one operator—ScotRail—would in some way be an advantage because it would remove other operators. I am not sure that it would be an advantage, because apart from the difficultly of having to change trains, passengers travelling north of Edinburgh would not have the option of using alternative operators if they so wished. Having said that, it is interesting that these Transport Scotland proposals seem to some extent to contradict others it puts forward in the same document. Elsewhere, it suggests that the Scottish franchise could be broken up into two or three franchisees, including one that would run the “economic” day services, presumably the profit-making ones, and another that would run the social services, presumably the loss-making ones. In my view, that would be a retrograde step, but it is probably not an issue to be discussed at length today.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

I compliment my hon. Friend on securing the debate. In the rural location I represent, there is a deep concern that we will see a central belt locality with lots of passengers and rail services, offering, to all intents and purposes, a first class service, alongside the potential for second class services—I hate to use that term—being offered just on and off in rural localities, and not really meeting the genuine needs of people living there.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

That is a genuine concern. I obviously do not know the detailed financial arrangements inside ScotRail and its franchise, but there is currently some cost subsidy between the different sections of the route, and we could well see a situation in which the economic franchise took all the good routes, with the profits going to the shareholders or the Scottish Government, and the social services suffered, as very much the poor relations. That would certainly be a consequence if that line was followed by Transport Scotland. To be fair, it is only an option, and I do not want to misrepresent it as the preferred option.

The outcome of the changes to cross-border services is pretty clear. Instead of having one through ticket on one through train, passengers could have to change services, wait sometimes in the cold—Edinburgh Waverley is not the warmest station in the world, I regret to say—and have the hassle of negotiating various pricing deals offered by different rail companies as they change trains. More passengers would therefore stop using rail. They would fly or add to traffic on already busy roads, and some tourists might not come at all. They would certainly be less likely to travel north of the central belt to areas where tourism is so important to the local economy. The proposals would not only affect passengers on long-distance cross-border services; there would also be a loss of choice for passengers from places such as Edinburgh to destinations further north, including Dundee and Inverness on the east coast services, and, dare I say it, there would be a loss of competition as well.

The operational arguments for maintaining cross-border services seem overwhelming, and the benefits to passengers are certainly clear. I am concerned that it appears that one of the motivations for the proposed termination of cross-border services at Edinburgh and Glasgow is what can only be described as a narrow financial interest. I quote again from the Transport Scotland report:

“The provision of these services, whilst providing additional capacity, also takes potential passengers and revenue from ScotRail services, and thereby affects the levels of subsidy required from the Scottish Government.”

The first priority should not be whether a few pounds, euros or even Scottish dollars should be saved for the Scottish Government; it should be the needs of passengers. I hope that the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland will recognise that, and the other concerns that I am raising. I urge Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government to keep our cross-border services, and I hope that the UK Department for Transport will make those views known to the Scottish Government.

Many of the arguments against cutting cross-border services also apply to Transport Scotland’s proposals for sleeper services between Scotland and England. In its report, Transport Scotland suggests that all or at least some services be removed from the requirement to operate under the ScotRail franchise and allowed to operate under a separate franchise. The report gives various suggestions about whether that franchise should be supported financially or run commercially only. It also suggests that only services to and from Edinburgh be franchised, leaving other services to be operated on a commercial basis only. Effectively, that would almost certainly mean that they would not be operated.

Leaving aside the fact that removing sleeper services from the ScotRail franchise, thereby jeopardising their future, would be an extremely odd move at a time when the UK and Scottish Governments are considering financing new sleeper stock, if such a cut were made or sleeper services were totally withdrawn, it would be bad news for passengers, and particularly bad news for the business and tourist sectors. I spoke last week to people from the Edinburgh business sector who expressed concern that a threat to the Edinburgh sleeper service would damage the business and tourism connectivity of Edinburgh and of Scotland as a whole.

I hope that the Minister shares my concern about both those issues, and I hope that her Government will reflect to the Scottish Government the concerns shown by many in Scotland in business, leisure and local communities, as well as workers in the rail industry. I certainly hope that Transport Scotland will think again.

I emphasise that I am not against change in the ScotRail arrangements or anywhere else, but I am against change so damaging to the travelling public. I would like some imagination from both Governments and from the rail industry in general about how existing service patterns might be improved to provide better connections between Scotland and England and better cross-border services, rather than making it more inconvenient to travel across the border. For example, at a time of big increases in rail travel on day services, could we not consider providing more sleeper services in the UK rather than fewer, perhaps reinstating some of the services cut a few years ago, or even overnight services from Scotland and the north of England to the continent of Europe?

On day travel, is it not time to consider how to improve cross-border services rather than cutting them? On my recent visit to Liverpool for the Labour party conference, due to the non-existence of through services, I was reminded again of the number of changes involved and the difficulty of connections from Edinburgh and Glasgow to that major city. There are also other places in England where through services to Scotland are not what they could be. In my view, we should be considering improving the service rather than cutting it in the way proposed by Transport Scotland. I hope that Transport Scotland and the Department for Transport will consider those thoughts for the future, as they will have to work together on the issues due to their cross-border implications.

I have spent some time referring to and criticising some of the proposals for rail services made by Transport Scotland. There are many others on which I have a view, but I will not mention those that are primarily of devolved concern. There are obvious overlaps between both devolved and reserved responsibilities. I know, for example, that people in Scotland are angry at the increase in fares announced for Scotland, as for the rest of the UK, but that is obviously the responsibility of the Scottish Government and Parliament, so I will not go into it in more detail, although I emphasise that views on the issue are extremely strongly held.

I will comment on one area of future policy that concerns both Transport Scotland and the Department for Transport: high-speed rail. Having so far been critical of Transport Scotland’s proposals, I will now be more positive about some of its recent ones. Indeed, I warmly welcome its recent report, “Fast Track Scotland: Making the Case for High Speed Rail Connections with Scotland”. The report was published earlier this month and resulted in numerous conclusions with broad or all-party support. The first is:

“Scotland stands united in support of high-speed rail. It is vital that a high-speed rail network be established across the UK to secure its future competitiveness and economic prosperity”,

as well as the competitiveness and economic prosperity of the entire UK.

The report continues:

“The investment case for high-speed rail is strong, but is stronger when Scotland is included.

Scotland supports a high-speed rail strategy which brings Edinburgh and Glasgow closer to London and the UK’s great cities, and which preserves and enhances aviation links with London’s airports for the north of Scotland.

A new high-speed line must be built to Scotland to realise the fullest economic and environmental benefits for the UK.”

I endorse those comments completely. I believe that high-speed rail is important to improve journey times, for environmental reasons and to improve capacity on the rail network as a whole. Transport Scotland’s report presents a powerful case for connecting Scotland with the high-speed rail network. Equally, the report highlights how a failure to connect high-speed routes to services on other lines could damage Scotland’s interests by placing it and cities in the north of England in a relatively worse position, in terms of journey times and rail capacity, than cities linked to the network.

As I have said, it is in the interests of the UK’s high-speed rail network as a whole that Scotland should be part of the network, because of the benefits that it would bring to the business case for the whole network. Business leaders throughout the UK support Scotland’s inclusion in a high-speed rail link.

[Ann McKechin]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the approach taken by HS2 Action Alliance has been disappointing? It wrote to Members earlier today expressing that an alternative that would save a mere 20 minutes of journey time should be satisfactory. I represent a Glasgow constituency, and he represents an Edinburgh one. Given that the joint economic force of Glasgow and Edinburgh makes them the second largest economy outside London, does he agree that the strength of the case is overwhelming? It is time for those who oppose HS2 to consider properly the economic interests of all parts of the United Kingdom.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I understand that the exact route of High Speed 2 is being debated, as are issues such as the right route and speed for a line, at what speed trains could run and whether changes could be made to reflect the environment. I accept all those concerns—I am not saying that one should not—but ultimately, it is not just a question of taking 20 minutes off the time to reach Glasgow and Edinburgh. In any configuration, we are talking about major time savings. By definition, those time savings increase the longer the distance travelled, which is why it is so important to the business case of the whole line that Scotland should be included at an early stage in the planning.

Support for Scotland’s inclusion in the high-speed rail link comes from business leaders throughout the UK. The London chamber of commerce and industry says that

“for HS2 to improve the country’s connectivity and infrastructure capacity, it must reach the whole of the UK. Only then will the expected business and transport benefits be enjoyed by the entire country… Consequently, the line should also be planned and thought of in its totality, rather than as independent and isolated sections.”

I absolutely agree.

The Greater Manchester chamber of commerce says:

“Glasgow and Greater Manchester are two of the UK’s largest economies and the third and fourth biggest population centres in the country. Strong economic development within these cities will be essential for countering the economic dominance of London and providing the driver for growth within their respective regions. As such, high-quality links between these centres is essential for developing trade, tourism and expanding the knowledge, opportunities and labour catchment areas for these conurbations… Significantly, though, the benefits of high-speed rail are greater over longer distances, and therefore the time savings between Manchester and Glasgow would be significant enough to help deliver a shift in mode of travel and generate passenger demand on the new rail network.”

That is why I, along with opinion across the political and social spectrums in Scotland and beyond, am extremely concerned by the possibility that serious planning for high-speed rail to Scotland will not even start for many years. If planning for high-speed rail to Scotland is left until later, it could be the 2040s at the earliest before high-speed rail reaches Scotland. Such a long delay after the routes reach the midlands and the north of England would be extremely damaging to the economic interests of Scotland and those parts of the north of England not linked to the route.

To secure the funding to allow high-speed rail to reach Scotland requires choices, and I accept that they may be choices about routes, speeds or the location of sections of routes. Putting together the funding package is still many years off, but I want to emphasise that we do not want to be in a situation where not even the planning has been started. We must ensure that we plan now for Scotland to be part of that high-speed line. Detailed planning of HS2 must be done at this stage, as the report from Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government calls for, and I fully endorse it.

Let me emphasise again that it is in no one’s interest for Scotland to be left at the end of a high-speed line. The Scottish Government have said that they will pay for the Scottish section of such a line. Although their commitment looks a little shaky under closer analysis, I am sure that a future Scottish Government of any political shade would recognise the value contributing to a project of such importance for Scotland. I understand that Scottish Ministers hoped to meet the Minister or her colleagues to discuss the issue. Was any progress made in those discussions? Is there potential for an agreement with the Scottish Government?

I could say much more, and although there is time to do so, it is right to allow the Minister and the Front-Bench spokesman plenty of time to respond to the concerns that I have raised. There are certainly many other rail policy issues at UK level that concern Scotland, including a number of the implications of the McNulty report and some of the proposals in the Transport Scotland report on transferring some of the responsibilities that Network Rail supervises at a British level to a devolved level. They are significant matters, but they are perhaps too technical and lengthy and would require me to divert to another subject at great length.

Maintaining the sleeper and cross-border services and planning for future and better connectivity are important and concern all Scotland. I hope that the Minister and the Front-Bench spokesman will say something that recognises the importance of those issues, assures us of a way forward and, as I have indicated, sends a clear message from the House to Transport Scotland that some of its proposals would be extremely damaging to transport interests throughout Scotland.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Before I call the Front-Bench speakers, may I say, after that excellent start, that this is a slow debate? We are taking the scenic route with plenty of time to admire the view. The Opposition spokesman need not trouble himself to rush to the end of his remarks. I call John Woodcock.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you for that sound advice, Mr Hollobone. May I say at length what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship? I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing the debate and on his excellent speech about a critical issue for, of course, Scotland, but also for the economy of the whole United Kingdom. Throughout the debate, it is important that we keep that in mind.

In recent weeks, we have heard concerning noises from the Scottish Government on the future of not only rail services in Scotland, but cross-border services, as my hon. Friend described. Given the franchise renewal timetable—two of the three major cross-border operations are due to be re-let in the next 24 months—this is a timely moment to discuss Government policy on cross-border rail services. He expressed the importance of the subject well.

On a personal level, as a twice-weekly user of the Euston to Glasgow service to return to my constituency, I am very aware of how well used and often overcrowded such services are. Although the train may be overcrowded this evening and a little late, the journey back home to my constituency for Christmas will be made all the sweeter for having had the chance to take part in the debate today, so, again, I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on securing this debate on the last afternoon before the Christmas recess.

It is important to talk about the improvements made to both lines into Scotland over the past decade. They were often made at a greater cost than should have been the case, but were improvements nevertheless. Despite the overruns and pain for passengers arising from the west coast main line upgrade, the end product was reduced journey times to Glasgow, with a more reliable service, operated by modern trains. One hundred and six extra Pendolino coaches, which were ordered under the previous Government, will arrive in the UK to provide extra seats on the route, and Lord knows they are needed at peak times.

The number of trains has steadily increased on the east coast route, with a half-hourly service to Edinburgh, which my hon. Friend mentioned, running for much of the day. The major timetable change, announced by the Labour Government last year, cut journey times and reintroduced a Flying Scotsman service, which takes just four hours between the capitals. The CrossCountry and TransPennine Express services into Scotland have benefitted from new rolling stock and increased frequency. Nevertheless, significant shortcomings in cross-border services remain, which is why the Scottish National party Government’s policy to cut Scotland off from the rest of the UK is so worrying. As an aside, it is also worrying that no SNP Members are here for a debate that affects the links between Scotland and the rest of the UK and that is directed at the alarming decision their colleagues in Government in Holyrood have brought forward and seem set to plough ahead with.

Even now, overcrowding on some trains limits the capacity for the modal shift that we would like from domestic air travel to rail. Walk-on fares are high and the cheapest deals sell out quickly. Passengers have to endure periods of very poor reliability, leading this week to the Office of Rail Regulation taking enforcement action against Network Rail due to poor performance on those routes. Ministers need to address those concerns when they make decisions on the future of the west and east coast franchises.

The proposals for a 14-year franchise on the west coast do not require extra capacity to be provided before 2026 and Ministers have scaled back the size of the inter-city express programme, designed to provide new trains and extra seats on the east coast. I am afraid that all that points to lack of clarity and ambition for cross-border services over the next couple of decades.

As ever, my hon. Friend led the charge on high-speed rail to Scotland. He made his case strongly, as he always does. It is important that we are clear that Scotland will benefit if we secure the scheme that is on the table, but still, unfortunately, remains in doubt—that is, a new high-speed line right the way through to Manchester and Leeds. With through-running on to the existing network, that will reduce journey times from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow by at least an hour. By bypassing the most congested parts of the east and west coast main lines, HS2 can allow for a step change in the frequency of cross-border services, which I am sure everyone in today’s debate would want to see. That is why we are continuing to urge the Government to introduce a single Bill on the full route to the north of England, rather than simply for the route to Birmingham, as is currently planned.

I know that the Minister will be particularly grateful for potentially having considerable time to wind up today and deal with where she is on that issue at length. She can perhaps give us a preview of the forthcoming announcement on HS2, which we all expect and hope will be made early in January. Ministers claim to be committed to the fully shaped network, but we need more than words. As mentioned on the issue of going all the way up to Scotland—it is the same for going up to the north of England—the principle remains that the business case for high-speed rail is far stronger if it extends to Manchester and Leeds. The benefits that that would bring to Scotland are a key part of that case.

However, it is understandable that my hon. Friend has focused his concern today on the “Rail 2014” document produced by Transport Scotland. As he said, obviously, the bulk of its contents deals with internal Scottish services. The threat of having fewer trains calling at fewer stations is certainly worrying for the constituents of my hon. Friends here today.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I wanted to intervene on my hon. Friend before he moved off the subject of high-speed rail. Will he consider again the fact that it is of absolute importance that detailed planning for HS2 going to Scotland takes place at this stage, rather than waiting until the second hybrid Bill is going through the House? If we do that, bluntly, the chances are that high-speed rail will not go to Scotland for two or three decades. That would not be good enough.

[John Woodcock]

I hear—as do all hon. Members—the case that my hon. Friend has consistently made on that. The Government’s commitment to take the line only up to Birmingham and to legislate for that is alarming. Certainly, there is an opportunity here. Without delaying the building work and the commencement of construction by a single day, the Minister could easily create a single hybrid Bill that would legislate to take high-speed rail all the way up to Manchester and Leeds. She may want to say what the timetable implications are for the suggestion that my hon. Friend has made.

The cross-border services set out in the consultation document are remarkable. It is astonishing that a Scottish Government who claim to represent the whole of Scotland are suggesting the removal of through-services from London and other parts of England to towns and cities north of Edinburgh. That will force passengers to change at Edinburgh Waverley, with all the particular difficulties that my hon. Friend has laid out so well.

Under those plans, the roll-call of Scottish places that would lose their direct London trains is damning: Inverness, Dundee, Perth, Stirling, Falkirk, Kirkcaldy, Montrose, Arbroath, Aviemore, Pitlochry and Stonehaven. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) has rightly raised concerns about the possible loss of the Glasgow to Carlisle through-service. That concern would be felt in my county of Cumbria to the same extent as it would in his constituency and beyond. By my count, under the proposals that the Scottish SNP Government have introduced, just five locations in Scotland would retain long-distance services into England.

As has been mentioned, those services are important to businesses across the north of Scotland—as much to the oil industry in Aberdeen as, for example, to bed and breakfasts in the Cairngorms. The direct service is appreciated by older people, by those with limited mobility and, indeed, by families with young children or heavy luggage. I recognise that this is outside the confines of the debate, but if we could have a direct service through to my constituency of Barrow and Furness, the prospect of being able to negotiate the buggy and a week’s worth of luggage would be greatly improved for many more people than me.

Returning to Scotland, obviously the content of the consultation is the responsibility of Scottish Ministers, who seem dangerously relaxed about restricting key transport links between Scotland and the rest of the UK. UK Ministers also have a responsibility. We welcome the Chancellor’s decision announced in the autumn statement to offer match funding to the Scottish Government to fund a replacement fleet of vehicles for the threatened sleeper services. In winding up, I hope that the Minister can tell us whether the Scottish Government have responded to that offer, whether she has made any direct representations on that issue and how the matter is progressing. Beyond that, can she let hon. Members know whether the UK Government will be responding to the Transport Scotland consultation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Lazarowicz]

Would it not be an irony if new sleeper stock were purchased but there were no sleeper services to operate as a result of a change in the franchise? My hon. Friend might recall—although possibly not—that, a few years ago, trains were going to provide direct services from Scotland and the English regions through to the continent of Europe. Those trains were never used for that purpose and, for a while, they ended up on the London to Leeds services. I do not know what has happened to them now, but would it not be an irony if money were spent—£100 million—on new sleeper rolling stock that was not actually used for that purpose?

[John Woodcock]

It would be more than an irony; it would be a travesty. My hon. Friend is right to emphasise the continued importance of sleeper services. Although airports have expanded and capacity has increased, the sleeper service remains a hugely important way of connecting London with Edinburgh, Glasgow and beyond. We need to find a way to retain it, and it is alarming that the proposals will potentially withdraw it. Will the Minister therefore answer our questions about the sleeper services? Will she also tell us whether the through-trains to Aberdeen and Inverness will be protected when Ministers publish the requirements for the east coast franchise? Will she reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the bi-mode part of the inter-city express programme, which is key to allowing through-running to continue?

Ultimately, Scots and citizens in all parts of the UK will lose out if the SNP’s great railway robbery goes ahead. Over the years, SNP Members, who are not here today, have often been known as the Tories’ little helpers. It is now time for the Conservatives and their Liberal Democrat friends in the Government to show that they will not let themselves be the SNP’s little helpers as it pursues its agenda of cutting Scotland off from the rest of the UK.

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[Mrs Villiers]

I always have been, and continue to be, strongly supportive of a connection between HS2 and Heathrow. I am also strongly supportive of a thorough, evidence-based consideration of all the options on routes, which is exactly what the Secretary of State is undertaking. I imagine that, as we debate, she is probably poring over the detailed submissions summarising the consultation, which provide her with all the information that she needs to take a decision on whether to go ahead with the project as a whole, and, if so, on the best route. I am confident that she will take the right decision. As I have said, the shadow Minister will have to wait just a little longer to hear that. He well knows that the coalition’s plans and proposals include a direct link to Heathrow in phase 2.

On the hybrid Bill, again, as we have had many opportunities to debate, the Government have concluded that the best way to take HS2 forward as efficiently and rapidly as possible is by two separate hybrid Bills—one for the first phase in the west midlands and one for the second phase to Manchester and Leeds. There are pros and cons about the procedures either way, but changing course now and suddenly deciding on a hybrid Bill to accommodate both phases might slow down the project. I think it would be risky. What is important is that once the Secretary of State has made a decision we should take whatever steps are needed to press ahead promptly with implementing it. I hope that the cross-party consensus that the shadow Minister has mentioned repeatedly will prove useful in proceeding with high-speed rail if that is the outcome of the Secretary of State’s deliberations.

Of course, the goal set out in the coalition agreement is to deliver a genuinely national high-speed rail network. It is therefore a timely moment to consider the impact on Scotland. Although the Y network that we propose would bring important benefits to Scottish passengers and the Scottish economy, because of the journey time savings that we have talked about and the relief of capacity pressure that the shadow Minister referred to, we still recognise the strong support for extending the proposed new high-speed line north to Scotland in the future.

The Government share the aspiration of the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith for high-speed rail one day to extend north of the border all the way to Edinburgh and Glasgow. He will appreciate that, constitutionally, the Scottish Government have responsibility for the rail infrastructure north of the border, including funding it. However, if we go ahead with HS2, phases 1 and 2, we will certainly expect to work with the Scottish Government on identifying and considering options for expanding the proposed high-speed network in the future. I assure him that there is no need to wait for completion of either phase before serious work is started in relation to potential further expansion of the network.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I welcome the broad commitment that the right hon. Lady has given, but she will understand that although the Y-shaped route will clearly bring benefits to Scotland, because of the effect on rail speeds and capacity further south, it will by definition not help with capacity once the end of the Y line is reached and the journey continues on existing lines to Edinburgh and Glasgow. If anything, there might be capacity problems, because of extra trains on those lines. Can the right hon. Lady give any indication of the type of discussions that are going on with the Scottish Government? I get the impression that they are something that may happen one day, as she said; but we want more of a commitment than that. We want an indication of what work is going on now, and a commitment that preparation should start now.

[Mrs Villiers]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that officials from HS2 and the Department for Transport have regular discussions with Transport Scotland about high-speed rail. I have discussed it with Scottish Ministers on several occasions. The Secretary of State for Defence also discussed it, when he was Transport Secretary, with Scottish Ministers. Indeed, HS2 is already considering options further to reduce journey times to Edinburgh and Glasgow. We recognise the enthusiasm for further work on expanding the proposed high-speed rail network. As I have said, we share the aspiration of establishing a genuinely national network, which must of course include Scotland.

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[Mrs Villiers]

I think that that would be unwise, because the Government take devolution very seriously. We are talking about rail services provided in Scotland. It is certainly not at all unreasonable for the Scottish Government to wish to have an input in how those services are run. At this stage, it would be inappropriate for the coalition to start dictating the outcome of a consultation on the ScotRail franchise. I will therefore confine my remarks to saying that we would have reservations about a route down which we did not chose to go in relation to the IEP, but we will listen to the Scottish Government if they choose to pursue that further.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I am not asking the Minister to veto the Scottish Government’s proposals, if they go along the line of a Scottish franchise that takes on board the services north of Edinburgh, because I accept that devolution exists and that the Scottish Government have the right to put forward their views. My point is that we are discussing UK services as well, and I ask her to take that on board. If the Scottish Government decide on such proposals, I hope that she will ask them to ensure that the new franchisee will still be required to maintain cross-border services.

[Mrs Villiers]

I certainly take those points on board, but closing down the debate at this stage would not be appropriate, because it would be undermining, and we respect the devolution settlement and want to pursue an agenda of mutual respect. We would consider such proposals from the Scottish Government if they chose to go ahead. As I said, we need to weigh carefully all the appropriate evidence. If the proposal were indeed motivated by some political separatist agenda, that would be a real concern. A final decision will need to be made in time for the publication of the invitation to tender for the next east coast franchise in the autumn next year.

The shadow Minister mentioned performance on the east coast line. It has certainly been disappointing; the performance of both the train operator and Network Rail has been below the levels expected. Cable theft has had a major effect, and we are discussing co-ordinated action throughout the Government, with a view possibly to increase the punishment for cable thieves and to clamp down on rogue elements of the scrap-metal industry.

The west coast main line, meanwhile, has also experienced a performance dip in recent months, mainly owing to track faults and other infrastructure delays. I am afraid that performance on the two routes has contributed to the Office of Rail Regulation’s recent warning to Network Rail, set out in a letter of 19 December, that the company is in danger of breaching its licence conditions for the long-distance sector and will miss its regulatory targets for the sector this year. The ORR made it clear that it expects Network Rail to submit robust plans for improving performance on key routes such as those on the east and west coasts. The Government, too, believe that performance needs to improve, and we are fully supportive of the action that the ORR has taken.

Concerns about fares have been expressed. The fares that people pay are of course making an essential contribution to the massive rail upgrade programme that is being delivered and to which I referred at the start of my remarks. Some cheap fares for cross-border services are available to those who can book ahead and commit to a specific service, but we recognise that it is not always possible to do that. We understand the concern about rail fares and the pressure that they put on family budgets. That is why, in the Chancellor’s autumn statement, he announced that funding had been secured to cancel the proposed increase of the retail prices index plus 3% planned for next year and to revert to an RPI plus 1% increase for the fares coming into effect in January. That covers cross-border services on the east and west coast main lines, as well as others in England.

If we are to provide a lasting solution to passenger concern about fares, however, it is vital to get the cost of running the railways down. Sir Roy McNulty’s report, referred to briefly in the debate, set out a path that he believed would achieve significant savings without cuts in service provision. At the heart of his recommendations are measures to align incentives between Network Rail and the train operators. Put simply, we need to ensure that the two sides of the rail industry, track and train, work better together, with a strong shared incentive to get costs down and to improve outcomes for passengers. We are determined to deliver effective savings on the railway, so that we can deliver the improvements that passengers want and respond to their concerns on value for money.

I am grateful to hon. Members for listening with such patience to my remarks on cross-border rail services this afternoon.