Rail Services from and to Scotland

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing this debate on the last day before the recess. Let me also say how much I always enjoy serving under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. You wisely advised us to take our time and look in some depth at the important issues under consideration.

The goal the coalition Government set themselves was to tackle the deficit we inherited and to build a solid foundation for economic recovery and growth. That means not only getting the best value for every pound of taxpayers’ money spent, but prioritising the spending that can best support growth, jobs and prosperity. That is why transport, including rail, came out of the spending review in a much stronger position than most people expected, and why the Chancellor gave the go-ahead for a further list of road and rail improvements in his recent autumn statement.

Rail services—be they services within England, the cross-border services we are discussing or services in Wales—are very much at the heart of our transport strategy. The programme of capacity expansion we are taking forward is bigger in scale than anything undertaken since the Victorian era. The comprehensive spending review allocated about £18 billion to rail, while the autumn statement provided further support, including £50 million for the replacement of vehicles for the Caledonian sleeper, as we heard in this morning’s debate.

As we also heard this morning, however, that is subject to co-funding by the Scottish Government. They have not yet announced whether they are prepared to co-fund the project and to match the funding the Westminster Government are prepared to provide. As we know, there are no nationalists here to defend the position of their Government north of the border, so we are, sadly, unable to question them about it directly. However, we will continue to engage the Scottish Government on this.

[Mr Russell Brown]

I thank the Minister for the information she has just given us. Is there a finite time for which that offer of money will lie on the table, after which she will need to say that it is no longer there? In her interaction with the SNP Government in Edinburgh, she will discover that they will prevaricate on a whole host of issues and that they tend to put one obstacle in front of another. Does she therefore have a finite time for how long that offer of money will lie on the table?

[John Woodcock]

Good question.

[Mrs Villiers]

That is a very good question. I am not aware that the Chancellor or the Department for Transport have set a time limit for the Scottish Government to respond, but rapid consideration of this important decision would be welcome, not least because of the support for sleeper services, which was mentioned by both hon. Members who have spoken. It behoves the Scottish Government to get a move on and make a decision on this. The Westminster Government have put their money where their mouth is in expressing support for the sleeper service and potentially allocating £50 million to support its long-term future. It is now for the Scottish Government to step up to the plate and decide whether they are prepared to match that funding or lose it.

Ultimately, the running of the sleeper service will be a decision for the Scottish Government, because it is part of the ScotRail franchise, which is devolved to the Scottish Government. Ultimately, Westminster will not take the decision. As I said, I recognise the concern felt north of the border about this proposal and others made by the nationalists in the Scottish Government. I hope the disadvantages of such proposals will be thoroughly considered when the Scottish Government ultimately decide whether to match the funding we have offered and include sleeper services in the upcoming ScotRail franchise.

The Government are committed to a range of other improvements on our rail network to support and improve cross-border services. As the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) said, the west coast main line was given a £9 billion upgrade under the previous Government to deliver faster and more frequent services. As he said, the delivery was somewhat painful for passengers, but real improvements have now started to be delivered. In addition, west coast passengers will benefit from 106 extra Pendolino vehicles, a number of which are already in operation, with the rest coming on stream over the next 12 months or so. The intercity express programme will provide a new fleet to replace the diesel 125 high-speed trains on services between London, Aberdeen and Inverness. It will also potentially replace the electric 225s on the east coast line if the franchise operator wishes to go ahead with that.

Significant improvements are being made to the infrastructure on the east coast line as part of Network Rail’s control period 4 programme, which is funded by the Government. These include major work on the joint line via Spalding and Lincoln to provide a diversionary route for freight and free up space for more passenger services. The long-awaited Hitchin flyover is also going ahead, as are major power supply upgrades to improve services for all passengers on the line, including those on cross-border services.

Those improvements will make a real difference to rail passengers travelling between Scotland and England. Although they are important, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith outlined, they will not be enough on their own to deal with the long-term demand for inter-city transport capacity that our economy is expected to generate in the next 20 years. We expect rapidly rising demand for inter-city travel to outpace any measures we can realistically or practically take to boost capacity, given the constraints on existing lines.

That is why the Government have, this year, run a five-month public consultation—one of the biggest ever carried out—on proposals for a new high-speed rail network. The proposals would provide a step change in capacity and help bring our major conurbations much closer together. Our proposal for a Y-shaped national high-speed rail network would link London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, with connections to the west and east coast main lines from the proposed new line. Those connections are crucial to today’s debate because they would allow the through-running of high-speed rail services on to the west and east coast so that passengers could reach Edinburgh and Glasgow without having to change trains.

The Y-shaped network, plus the ability for trains to run off it and on to the existing network, would, as we have heard, cut journey times between Scotland’s two biggest cities and London to about three and a half hours. That is an hour less than many of today’s services. Such journey time reductions could give significant connectivity and economic benefits to Scotland. I know that those things are important to many in Scotland, including, I am sure, the constituents of the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith.

There are also benefits in relation to air-to-rail switch, which is worth mentioning in this context. Experience shows that when rail journeys come down to three or four hours, they become more competitive with air services. The coalition Government’s proposal for a direct link to Heathrow as part of phase 2 of the Y network would provide important connectivity benefits to Edinburgh and Glasgow, with a seamless and effective connection to our major hub airport.

[John Woodcock]

The right hon. Lady has mentioned the benefits of the Heathrow spur in the context of going all the way to Scotland. Has she not seen, for a long time, the value of going via Heathrow in the first phase, rather than building an extra spur afterwards at greater overall cost to the taxpayer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

I think that there is consensus between the parties that it is essential to have a connection to Heathrow. The Government’s proposal to include a spur as part of phase 2 would provide a top-class link to Heathrow, which would be great for passengers in both Scotland and England. As to the route that the Opposition have been considering, although they chose not to submit it to the consultation, I believe that others have submitted routes that are more or less identical, and I assure the hon. Gentleman now, as I have before, that all the route options presented for consultation will be rigorously assessed before the Secretary of State makes her decision on High Speed 2, and, if she goes ahead, before she makes her decision on the route.

There is a detailed process—and it is right that it is very formal—to ensure that every person who contributed to the consultation will be listened to, and that their representations will be dealt with fairly. The shadow Minister invites me to pre-empt the Secretary of State’s decision on that. He knows that that would not be a terribly wise career move. I assure him that she will announce her decision soon, but he will just have to wait for her to make the announcement. It would be unwise of me to pre-empt it with one of my own.

[John Woodcock]

It would be good if the Minister could say a little more about whether the proposal for a single Bill is under active consideration. There is cross-party consensus on that, so would not it make more sense, in relation to both the business case and the stability of the project, to lock in a single Bill now, and take things forward together?

Given that we have time, perhaps I may make a second point. In opposition, the right hon. Lady was in favour of going to Heathrow as part of the first phase. That must count for something, must it not?

[Mrs Villiers]

I always have been, and continue to be, strongly supportive of a connection between HS2 and Heathrow. I am also strongly supportive of a thorough, evidence-based consideration of all the options on routes, which is exactly what the Secretary of State is undertaking. I imagine that, as we debate, she is probably poring over the detailed submissions summarising the consultation, which provide her with all the information that she needs to take a decision on whether to go ahead with the project as a whole, and, if so, on the best route. I am confident that she will take the right decision. As I have said, the shadow Minister will have to wait just a little longer to hear that. He well knows that the coalition’s plans and proposals include a direct link to Heathrow in phase 2.

On the hybrid Bill, again, as we have had many opportunities to debate, the Government have concluded that the best way to take HS2 forward as efficiently and rapidly as possible is by two separate hybrid Bills—one for the first phase in the west midlands and one for the second phase to Manchester and Leeds. There are pros and cons about the procedures either way, but changing course now and suddenly deciding on a hybrid Bill to accommodate both phases might slow down the project. I think it would be risky. What is important is that once the Secretary of State has made a decision we should take whatever steps are needed to press ahead promptly with implementing it. I hope that the cross-party consensus that the shadow Minister has mentioned repeatedly will prove useful in proceeding with high-speed rail if that is the outcome of the Secretary of State’s deliberations.

Of course, the goal set out in the coalition agreement is to deliver a genuinely national high-speed rail network. It is therefore a timely moment to consider the impact on Scotland. Although the Y network that we propose would bring important benefits to Scottish passengers and the Scottish economy, because of the journey time savings that we have talked about and the relief of capacity pressure that the shadow Minister referred to, we still recognise the strong support for extending the proposed new high-speed line north to Scotland in the future.

The Government share the aspiration of the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith for high-speed rail one day to extend north of the border all the way to Edinburgh and Glasgow. He will appreciate that, constitutionally, the Scottish Government have responsibility for the rail infrastructure north of the border, including funding it. However, if we go ahead with HS2, phases 1 and 2, we will certainly expect to work with the Scottish Government on identifying and considering options for expanding the proposed high-speed network in the future. I assure him that there is no need to wait for completion of either phase before serious work is started in relation to potential further expansion of the network.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I welcome the broad commitment that the right hon. Lady has given, but she will understand that although the Y-shaped route will clearly bring benefits to Scotland, because of the effect on rail speeds and capacity further south, it will by definition not help with capacity once the end of the Y line is reached and the journey continues on existing lines to Edinburgh and Glasgow. If anything, there might be capacity problems, because of extra trains on those lines. Can the right hon. Lady give any indication of the type of discussions that are going on with the Scottish Government? I get the impression that they are something that may happen one day, as she said; but we want more of a commitment than that. We want an indication of what work is going on now, and a commitment that preparation should start now.

[Mrs Villiers]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that officials from HS2 and the Department for Transport have regular discussions with Transport Scotland about high-speed rail. I have discussed it with Scottish Ministers on several occasions. The Secretary of State for Defence also discussed it, when he was Transport Secretary, with Scottish Ministers. Indeed, HS2 is already considering options further to reduce journey times to Edinburgh and Glasgow. We recognise the enthusiasm for further work on expanding the proposed high-speed rail network. As I have said, we share the aspiration of establishing a genuinely national network, which must of course include Scotland.

[Mr Russell Brown]

I would like to share with the Minister and hon. Members an infrastructure-related problem—albeit not to do with rail—which my ex-colleague the former Member for Carlisle, Eric Martlew, experienced when the M6 was brought north to Carlisle. For some reason it stopped there. When he asked an official why it stopped at Carlisle, he was told the road did not go anywhere. In other words, there was no need to take it to the border, or even into Scotland, which fell under the remit of the Scottish Office at that time. I have to share that worry with the Minister. We have a line that comes so far north, and we have this mindset that it goes nowhere. Colleagues in Scotland will be forcing the issue with the Scottish Government to engage in a process to make sure that something is happening north of the border that ensures that we get UK coverage of this railway.

[Mrs Villiers]

Mr Hollobone has given us great latitude to wander far and wide in the debate, but I am afraid that I do not have a very detailed knowledge of the history of the construction of the M6. I assure the hon. Gentleman that it is always wise to learn lessons from what has gone wrong with previous transport projects. I reiterate the importance that we place on playing our part to supply a high-quality transport network for the country as a whole. As I have said, infrastructure matters north of the border are rightly devolved to Transport Scotland, but we recognise the importance of our decisions on high-speed rail taking into account fully the interests of the economy and passengers in Scotland. That is why we are happy to engage with Scottish hon. Members and the Scottish Government. We need to view, with careful scrutiny and perhaps some scepticism or reservation, the promises that Scottish Ministers are now making about high-speed rail. It is difficult to judge whether their promises on funding are watertight, but we certainly welcome the enthusiasm with which they support the principle of high-speed rail.

Before moving on to through services on the current network, I will respond to the shadow spokesman’s criticism that the Government were somehow insufficiently supportive on high-speed rail. I remind the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness that we were the first to champion the benefits of high-speed rail. Indeed, we were doing so when Labour’s 30-year strategy for the railways, published in 2007, had no place at all for high-speed rail.

One of the other key issues raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith was the controversial consultation document issued by Transport Scotland on the service pattern for the new ScotRail franchise to be let from 2014 onwards. As we have heard, that has posed a question on whether services north of Edinburgh should be a matter for the Scottish franchisee. As we have heard, that would mean cross-border services terminating at Edinburgh Waverley, with onward connections to Aberdeen and Inverness provided by ScotRail. That proposition has been dubbed the “Edinburgh Hub” by Transport Scotland.

As we have heard, the Scottish Government make three assertions on the effect of that change. First, they assert that it would return greater revenue to the Scottish franchisee and reduce taxpayer subsidy—that might be a controversial claim. Secondly, they claim that moving to just one operator would improve resilience—that ought to be carefully tested. Thirdly, they claim that the change would give the ScotRail franchisee more freedom and flexibility in timetabling and running services. Fourthly, they claim that there are advantages in vesting control over services north of Edinburgh in a Scottish franchisee with no reliance on services specified by the Department for Transport.

One of my concerns is whether that is an ideologically-driven proposal motivated by a wish to control as many rail services in Scotland as possible. I would be very concerned if that was a motivating factor behind Transport Scotland’s fairly startling proposals. It is very important for the decision to be made on a clear and calm assessment of the potential effects of such a change.

The proposals generated considerable opposition and debate in Scotland. We have had discussions with the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland about the implications of such a change. As hon. Members might recollect, this issue has cropped up before. In considering whether to proceed with the intercity express programme, the Westminster Government looked at whether east coast services should terminate at Edinburgh, so that they could all be provided by electric trains. We decided against a rolling stock option that would have required passengers to change trains at Edinburgh, because we were concerned about the implications of such a change. That is the conclusion that we reached, so, as the hon. Gentleman invited me to say, I certainly would have reservations about the Scottish Government’s proposal.

If, following the consultation, the Scottish Government decide that they would like this change to take place on the east coast line, we would of course consider their proposal in accordance with our mutual respect agenda. However, hon. Members have been clear in outlining the disadvantages of such an approach, which, as I have said, would have to be very carefully considered. It is disappointing that no one is here to defend the nationalists’ position or explain why they have chosen to consult on such a controversial proposal.

[John Woodcock]

I appreciate what the Minister is saying, but if she feels so strongly, would it not make more sense, for good governance, to be clear now that the proposal is not a goer? We would not need to go through the consultation, wait for a response and see whether something comes through. If she made it clear that this is not something that she would accept, it would allow people to go forward with greater clarity.

[Mrs Villiers]

I think that that would be unwise, because the Government take devolution very seriously. We are talking about rail services provided in Scotland. It is certainly not at all unreasonable for the Scottish Government to wish to have an input in how those services are run. At this stage, it would be inappropriate for the coalition to start dictating the outcome of a consultation on the ScotRail franchise. I will therefore confine my remarks to saying that we would have reservations about a route down which we did not chose to go in relation to the IEP, but we will listen to the Scottish Government if they choose to pursue that further.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I am not asking the Minister to veto the Scottish Government’s proposals, if they go along the line of a Scottish franchise that takes on board the services north of Edinburgh, because I accept that devolution exists and that the Scottish Government have the right to put forward their views. My point is that we are discussing UK services as well, and I ask her to take that on board. If the Scottish Government decide on such proposals, I hope that she will ask them to ensure that the new franchisee will still be required to maintain cross-border services.

[Mrs Villiers]

I certainly take those points on board, but closing down the debate at this stage would not be appropriate, because it would be undermining, and we respect the devolution settlement and want to pursue an agenda of mutual respect. We would consider such proposals from the Scottish Government if they chose to go ahead. As I said, we need to weigh carefully all the appropriate evidence. If the proposal were indeed motivated by some political separatist agenda, that would be a real concern. A final decision will need to be made in time for the publication of the invitation to tender for the next east coast franchise in the autumn next year.

The shadow Minister mentioned performance on the east coast line. It has certainly been disappointing; the performance of both the train operator and Network Rail has been below the levels expected. Cable theft has had a major effect, and we are discussing co-ordinated action throughout the Government, with a view possibly to increase the punishment for cable thieves and to clamp down on rogue elements of the scrap-metal industry.

The west coast main line, meanwhile, has also experienced a performance dip in recent months, mainly owing to track faults and other infrastructure delays. I am afraid that performance on the two routes has contributed to the Office of Rail Regulation’s recent warning to Network Rail, set out in a letter of 19 December, that the company is in danger of breaching its licence conditions for the long-distance sector and will miss its regulatory targets for the sector this year. The ORR made it clear that it expects Network Rail to submit robust plans for improving performance on key routes such as those on the east and west coasts. The Government, too, believe that performance needs to improve, and we are fully supportive of the action that the ORR has taken.

Concerns about fares have been expressed. The fares that people pay are of course making an essential contribution to the massive rail upgrade programme that is being delivered and to which I referred at the start of my remarks. Some cheap fares for cross-border services are available to those who can book ahead and commit to a specific service, but we recognise that it is not always possible to do that. We understand the concern about rail fares and the pressure that they put on family budgets. That is why, in the Chancellor’s autumn statement, he announced that funding had been secured to cancel the proposed increase of the retail prices index plus 3% planned for next year and to revert to an RPI plus 1% increase for the fares coming into effect in January. That covers cross-border services on the east and west coast main lines, as well as others in England.

If we are to provide a lasting solution to passenger concern about fares, however, it is vital to get the cost of running the railways down. Sir Roy McNulty’s report, referred to briefly in the debate, set out a path that he believed would achieve significant savings without cuts in service provision. At the heart of his recommendations are measures to align incentives between Network Rail and the train operators. Put simply, we need to ensure that the two sides of the rail industry, track and train, work better together, with a strong shared incentive to get costs down and to improve outcomes for passengers. We are determined to deliver effective savings on the railway, so that we can deliver the improvements that passengers want and respond to their concerns on value for money.

I am grateful to hon. Members for listening with such patience to my remarks on cross-border rail services this afternoon.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

After a leisurely journey across the rail network, both north and south of the border, we have reached our destination early. I thank all Members for taking part.