European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

I want to come back to the point made by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) about the timing of the two deals that are being negotiated in parallel: the exit deal and the framework for our future relationship. I think we can be a little more optimistic than he is. In article 50, it is envisaged that the negotiation for the exit agreement can only be done taking into account the framework for the future relationship. Article 50 envisages those two agreements being negotiated in parallel, so I think that what the Minister has set out has every prospect of coming to fruition.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Natascha Engel)]

I implore Members to keep interventions shorter. They are very, very long—they are little speeches—and we have got very little time. I implore Members to keep them a bit briefer.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 6th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Ms Engel. Was what the right hon. Member for East Devon (Sir Hugo Swire) just said in order? He accused the First Minister of Scotland of misleading the country by stating something that Members of this House in the Scottish National party have also said, so is he by extension accusing me and my hon. Friends of misleading the Chamber?

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Natascha Engel)]

It was not unparliamentary as the First Minister of Scotland is not a Member of this House.

[Mr Harper]

I am conscious that I have taken interventions from the Government Benches but not from the Opposition Benches. I give way to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson).

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[Mr Sheerman]

On a point of order, Ms Engel. The right hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) has been speaking for 22 minutes. Charming as he is, it seems that he has been filibustering the House, as he did in the previous debate, to prevent honest debate and opinion from being expressed this evening. What is going on?

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Natascha Engel)]

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, there are no time limits at this stage of a Bill. There is a limited amount of time available, as the right hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) knows. He has spoken at great length and he spoke at great length on the previous group. I have been listening very carefully and he has remained in order and spoken to the amendments and new clauses. There is nothing out of order in what he has said, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the mood of the Committee.

[Mr Harper]

I have taken interventions from colleagues on both sides of the Chamber, just as I did in the previous group, but I will take your admonition, Ms Engel, and not take so many interventions from now on.

I set out the points that I wished to cover at the beginning of my remarks. Colleagues who have been following carefully will know that I have only one point left, and I will cover it, because it is on the very important matter of Northern Ireland. Colleagues will be pleased to know that that is the last point I will make.

Two new clauses have been put forward on Northern Ireland. New clause 150 is about priority in negotiations, and it would ensure that people in Northern Ireland would have no external impediment to exercising their right of self-determination. Although it talks about bringing about a united Ireland, with which I do not agree, nothing in the process of exiting the European Union would have any impact on that. The legislation that governs the mechanisms available to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to do with border polls and so forth have nothing whatever to do with this process, so there is no need to accept this new clause.

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[Mr Harper]

Based on the Twitter trolling that I receive, I suspect that most people contacting the hon. and learned Lady would already have supported the nationalists in the first place. With the successful campaigning efforts of my friend, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, it seems that those of a Unionist disposition in Scotland are very much moving to support the Conservative party in Scotland, which is why she is the Leader of the Opposition there.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Natascha Engel)]

Order. We really must get back to the group of amendments.

[Mr Harper]

I have been tempted to speak for longer than I had intended.

I hope that, after running through the new clauses and amendments in this group, I have set out reasons why all of them should be opposed by those who wish to trigger article 50. If any of them are pressed to a Division, I hope the Committeee rejects them.

Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 18th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Again, that was not a point of order, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has said.

[Mr Harper]

I had moved on to dealing with the specific points in the Bill, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me just tackle the last couple of points made by the hon. Member for North West Durham before I conclude my remarks.

Backbench Business Committee

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

Thursday 26th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Natascha Engel]

My other criticism of the Backbench Business Committee is in dealing with e-petitions. Potentially, they are a mechanism for Parliament to have direct contact with our electorate—an opportunity that we do not often get between elections. They could work tremendously well in letting us know directly, in Parliament, what the electorate are thinking. Unless e-petitions are dealt with in a much better way, however, rather than having hundreds and thousands of people making contact with us through signing an e-petition, they could be disappointed by their contact with Parliament.

The Backbench Business Committee is not designed to deal with e-petitions. We are having to deal with the consequences, but unfortunately, we cannot do so ourselves. The Procedure Committee has made some good recommendations, and I hope we can deal with the problem immediately after the Queen’s Speech in the new Session, because it urgently needs our attention; otherwise all those who have signed e-petitions in good faith will be sorely disappointed. The longer we leave it, the more people will be disappointed. We should be able turn the problem round and make e-petitions work, so that people can have adequate and proper contact with us and not be disappointed. My hon. Friend’s point is an important one.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I do not want to take up too much time because I am conscious that this is a Back-Bench debate, but it might be helpful to put on the record that the Government remain proud to have facilitated the House in its decision to set up the Backbench Business Committee. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is sorry that he could not be present today, but he is looking forward to giving evidence shortly to the Procedure Committee on all the matters in the report. He particularly wanted to make it clear that the Government will give special consideration to the points made by the hon. Lady in the Backbench Business Committee’s report about the flexible use of the allocation of time, to see whether that can be improved. I am sure the Procedure Committee will want to question the Leader of the House on that when he gives evidence.

[Natascha Engel]

I thank the Minister for that helpful intervention. The Backbench Business Committee is brand-new, and the Standing Orders that brought it into existence were basic—dealing with how many people were on the Committee, its complexion and the allocation of time—so we have made everything else up as we went along. In our provisional approach, right at the start, we made it clear that we would take a lot of risks and that we would fail in many areas. Without that failure, however, we would not have been able to learn the lessons.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I know my hon. Friend’s views on this subject, but he is simply not right. One issue that the cross-party Committee is thinking about very carefully is exactly how to ensure that the reformed second Chamber is not a carbon copy of this place—that would clearly not be sensible. Although we think that Members should be elected, we will look at a range of ways of ensuring that the House of Lords can do its job properly as a revising Chamber, without duplicating the role of this House, which will remain the primary House of Parliament.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

3. If he will bring forward proposals to lower to 16 years the voting age in elections and referendums.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Natascha Engel

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Natascha Engel]

But they are so worth it!

[Mr Harper]

If the Government get their way, the referendum will take place on 5 May 2011, so based on the logic of her case surely the hon. Lady should be arguing that people who are 14 next year, who will be entitled to vote at the general election on 7 May 2015, should also be enfranchised. That is the logical conclusion of her argument, so why is that not the amendment she has tabled?

[Natascha Engel]

I tabled the amendment because the campaign to lower the voting age to 16 is well established. The argument we are making is that 16-year-olds are perfectly able to take responsibility and to have a well thought-out and well argued opinion. We need to focus on that. Personally, I would have no problem with allowing 14-year-olds to have a say, but that is not what we are arguing for today, although I know plenty of 14-year-olds who are very capable of making responsible decisions. The reason we have a limit at 16 is the same as the reason for having a limit at 18—it is arbitrary. I argue that we need to lower the age, because people can take responsibility. As has been said, 16-year-olds are allowed to go to war, and with the consent of their parents they are allowed to get married. They can do any number of things. Although the limit may be arbitrary, the campaign is well established and we need to draw the line somewhere. At present, it is being drawn at 18, but I would like it to be 16.

[Natascha Engel]

That is absolutely spot-on. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

[Mr Harper]

I shall limit myself to this point, or we shall be in danger of not moving on, but I want to nail it because it is driving me round the bend. The hon. Lady correctly said that 16-year-olds could not join the armed forces without their parents’ permission, but she also knows that we do not deploy to conflict people aged under 18. If she makes such arguments, she should at least make sure that they are factually accurate.

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[Mr Harper]

I would say two things to my hon. Friend. First, money is provided to local authorities as part of their normal funding, and it is a matter for the local authority to decide on priorities. In his own case, if he is dissatisfied with how the electoral registration officer is conducting himself, I suggest that he speaks to the chief executive of his local authority and makes those strong representations.

Secondly, given our proposals to move to individual voter registration in 2014, we will be improving the registration system and making it much more difficult for people who are not entitled to be on the register to be on it. I have written to local authority chief executives to ask them to take part in data-matching pilots in which we can, first, identify those who are more likely not to be on the register who should be, enabling authorities to target their resources on them and, secondly, target voters who should not be on the electoral register, to enable authorities to ensure that the register is not just complete but accurate. So there are two avenues there that my hon. Friend can pursue.

I want to address the argument made by the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), whose amendment 332 would extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. As I said, our approach has been that the people voting in the referendum should be those entitled to vote in a Westminster election. She, perfectly reasonably, is continuing her long-running campaign, supported by a number of hon. Members, to lower the voting age. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West, I do not think that experimenting with the franchise in this Bill is the right way to go.

Many hon. Members will know my views on lowering the voting age, but—on a note of agreement—my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) is right. He is a firm advocate of lowering the voting age in elections in general, but he acknowledges that trying to do that in this Bill, for one specific referendum, is not the right thing to do.

[Natascha Engel]

I do not want to sound rude, but the Minister’s general views on lowering the age are neither here nor there. My amendment concerns this one-off referendum. It seeks to change how the voting system will work at the next general election, when those who are 16 at the time of the referendum will be 18. This is a completely different situation from normal elections.

[Mr Harper]

As I said in my intervention on the hon. Lady, she has not thought through her argument. She has tried to make two different arguments for her amendment, and they do not really make sense. Her argument that people who will be voting at the next general election, on 7 May 2015, should have a say in the referendum would imply logically that people who are 14 next year—four years before the election—should be able to vote in the referendum too. Even she, with her campaign to lower the voting age to 16, has not proposed that, because she knows perfectly well that a proposal to allow 14-year-olds to vote would get laughed out of court, even by those who propose lowering the voting age to 16.

The hon. Lady’s argument does not stack up or make any sense. If we take her argument to its logical conclusion—picking up on the point made about a new voting system kicking in in perpetuity—we should enfranchise everybody alive today, because at some point in the future they will be voting in a general election based on the voting system bought in by the referendum next year. That simply does not make any sense. So we have adopted the usual position in this country, which is that to be able to vote in an election, one must be an adult, which in our system means being 18.

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[Natascha Engel]

I want briefly to correct the Minister on that point. That was not the argument I was making; the only argument I was making was that 16-year-olds on the day of the referendum will be 18 on the day of the election.

[Mr Harper]

But my point is that 14-year-olds on the day of the referendum will be 18 on the date of the next general election, so that argument simply does not make sense.

Also, the hon. Lady may not like this—I am happy about it, although she might not be—but I should point out that under the coalition Government’s proposals, referendums are likely to be more frequent rather than less, as we have proposed bringing them forward under our referendum lock. They might be referendums on European matters, local referendums or mayoral referendums. Therefore, those young people who are not yet 18 who miss out on voting in the referendum next year will find that there will be many referendums in the future on which they can vote, once they are 18.

My final point to the hon. Lady is that this issue is not a small one, because if all 16-year-olds on the date of the referendum were able to vote, that would mean electoral registration officers having to register those who are 15, which is a significant change to the way that they collect data. The hon. Lady said that the change would not cause much trouble, but it would actually cause a significant amount of trouble. I therefore hope that she will not press her amendment 332 to a vote, but if she does, I urge hon. Members on both sides of the Committee—and particularly those on the Government side—to vote against it. I also hope that those who are otherwise in favour of lowering the voting age can be happy that this is not the place to do so, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West said, he can bring forward a private Member’s Bill on the issue, which would be the place to have that debate. I urge hon. Members not to press their amendments to a vote.