Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting)

Debate between Marie Tidball and Rebecca Paul

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Paul]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I rise to speak about amendments 518 and 520. As we have said, it is important that we understand what coercion means in a legal sense, and I am really grateful to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge for trying to set that out, because it is not an easy task. Like her, I am concerned that defining it in this way may make it harder to prove coercion and may undermine the safeguards in the Bill.

Under the amendments, the assessing doctors and the panel are meant to look not just for evidence of coercion but for evidence of intent to induce assisted suicide, and they will have to show that the applicant is requesting assisted suicide against their will. That could make the law powerless against many kinds of behaviour that we want to prohibit.

To start with the point about intent, coercion and pressure take many forms, and they do not always involve a clear intent. Amendment (b) to amendment 518 and amendment (b) to amendment 520, in the name of the hon. Member for Lowestoft, very reasonably draw attention to family relationships. On Second Reading, the right hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) said:

“people do not generally write letters to sick relatives urging them to consider assisted suicide and then put those letters on file. Coercion in the family context can be about not what you say but what you do not say—the long, meaningful pause.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2024; Vol. 757, c. 1030.]

But even in more blatant cases, we cannot necessarily prove intent directed towards assisted suicide. Sue Smith, a clinical psychologist, said in written evidence that coercive control often ramps up when the abused partner receives a cancer diagnosis:

“The seriousness of the cancer diagnosis may be systematically and actively denied or minimised, claims can be made by the male partner that she is attention seeking, or she is accused of making up the effects of treatment, and can be left isolated and alone when in physical need…a woman learns to doubt her reality and experience, and is extremely isolated. This can lead to heightened anxiety, hopelessness and helplessness, and abject despair, which can lead to a person wishing they were dead.”

That could be seen as coercion towards assisted suicide, but in that scenario does the abusive partner demonstrate clear intent? I am not sure the doctor or panel could demonstrate that in that instance, especially as they need to be satisfied only on the balance of probabilities that there is no coercion. If the panel think that there is a 45% chance that there is intent, but no more than that, they have to grant the application.

The harrowing story of Ryan Wellings and Kiena Dawes shows that even when coercion can be proved, proving that an abuser intends someone else’s suicide is a completely different matter. After Kiena Dawes took her own life, Wellings was convicted of coercive control and assault. The judge told him:

“from May 2020 until her death you abused, assaulted, exploited, controlled and demeaned her. When she died it is clear that she had begun to believe your lies to the effect that she was deranged, physically disgusting, friendless, worthless and an unfit mother. You had persuaded her that she had no one to turn to.”

Before her death, Dawes wrote a note saying, “Ryan Wellings killed me.” Although he was convicted on other counts, Wellings was acquitted of manslaughter. That demonstrates that coercive control, even if it is followed by suicide, does not always mean that intent can be demonstrated. It is really tricky.

Similarly, people may pressurise a relative without intending to override their will. The barrister Ruth Hughes KC, who has been quoted before, said:

“It is surprisingly easy for a relative, whilst completing a variation on ‘the classic asset strip’, to persuade themselves that they are actually acting in their aunt Dorothy’s best interests or in accordance with her wishes”.

In other words, someone can pressurise a relative into assisted suicide without intending to. Again, including intent here could actually muddy the waters.

I have a similar concern about the phrase

“against that other person’s will”.

That sounds very straightforward, but in practice it can be much less clear. Part of the effect of coercion is that people lose confidence in their own will and adopt that of others. In written evidence, many frontline workers pointed out that coercion does not always clearly appear as someone acting against their will. Janet Reiss, a specialist doctor in palliative care in Wolverhampton, says patients will not

“even necessarily be aware of being coerced”.

Dr Jennifer Hardes Dvorak, a senior lecturer at Canterbury Christ Church University specialising in medical law, states that the Bill

“does not consider how people internalise feelings of coercion and…act on this.”

If someone has internalised a feeling that they would be better off dead, that may be their will, even if we hope we could change it.

Anni Donaldson, a domestic abuse expert at the University of Strathclyde, said:

“Decades of work examining the impact of coercive and controlling behaviour has shown that ‘coercive control’ is not merely persuasion, but a complete change in the perspective of the victim so that she truly believes that she is worthless, a burden to her partner or wider family, and would not be missed should she die…Women are regularly humiliated, demeaned, and told they would be ‘better off dead’, or, that they are a ‘useless mother’, or that the children would be better off without them. This abuse erodes women’s confidence, autonomy, and self-esteem. Cut off from support, women often come to believe these lies, fearing reprisals from their partner if they report the abuse, many choose to tell no one. This long term, relentless, dehumanising process can result in a woman believing that she is ‘disposable’.”

Similarly, the writer and campaigner Sarah Ditum warns that the Bill may not protect

“the patient who, through lengthy cruelty and coercion from a partner or carer, becomes genuinely convinced that she (or sometimes he) is a burden who would be better off dead. Such a person may even refuse treatment, causing a curable disease to become terminal and placing them within the purview of the bill.”

So we might not believe that assisted suicide is in someone’s best interests, but there is no best interest test in the Bill or the amendments—just a reference to the person’s will. If a victim of coercive control truly believes they ought to die, it is not clear how the doctor or the panel can refuse their application, unless coercion can actually be proved, and proving it is not always easy, as we have just discussed.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Wiltshire has tabled amendments to remove the phrase

“against that other person’s will”.

Obviously, that is all academic now, as we are not pressing the amendment to a vote, but I would support doing that, because that phrase does more to narrow the definition than anything else.

On another point, amendments 518 and 520 refer to pressure and coercion from organisations. I do not know exactly what the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has in mind with that. I guess an example might be the cases we have heard about in other jurisdictions where a health insurer or provider tells someone that they cannot fund a treatment but can fund assisted dying options. It could be that the hon. Lady had other things in mind there. That would possibly count as pressure under some circumstances, but it would be very hard to show that there was intent on the part of the organisation. It is not clear that the amendments help us to identify and avoid coercion and pressure in that sense.

Before I finish, I would like to point out something else that might be missing from the amendments: it is my favourite topic, the question of undue influence—my apologies to the Justice Minister, because I know we have gone over it a few times.

[Dr Tidball]

Just to put this one to bed, which is where we all need to go at this stage, I did seek advice from those that have worked in this field, and it is not a concept used commonly in the criminal law. It is instead used in the law of equity and would not be as relevant in this context. There were other, sharper elements that could make up this concept of coercion that were better and more well understood in the context of the criminal law.

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification of the information she has been given.

We have gone over the question of undue influence a few times. I promise I will not talk about it for much longer, but it is relevant, which is why I keep raising it. In a judgment that my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley has previously mentioned, Lord Nicholls said that undue influence includes two things. The first is

“overt acts of improper pressure or coercion”.

The second is a kind of influence that

“arises out of a relationship between two persons where one has acquired over another a measure of influence, or ascendancy, of which the ascendant person then takes unfair advantage...The influence one person has over another provides scope for misuse without any specific overt acts of persuasion. The relationship between two individuals may be such that, without more, one of them is disposed to agree a course of action proposed by the other.”

That definition suggests something broader than what is described in amendments 518 and 520, but I take the point that the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has just clarified. The amendments suggest that somebody will actively interfere with someone else’s “decision-making autonomy” and have an intention to induce them to do something. But Lord Nicolls’s definition of undue influence is much less dramatic; it just identifies a relationship where one person’s view holds a lot of sway. For the last time—I promise—I would be grateful for the Minister’s view on that. I am sure she will talk through that point and advise on the clarification the hon. Lady has just given.

In conclusion, the amendments are completely well intended. It is helpful that the hon. Lady tabled them and that we have had this debate, and I am grateful to her for that. However, I am inclined to think that they would narrow the definition too much. My preference would be to remain with what we have, subject to the points I have raised many times on undue influence.

[Dr Tidball]

Does the hon. Member agree that it is helpful to have it on record that we have evaluated these concepts from all sides, but determined that putting them in the Bill is not the right thing to do and would be too restrictive at this point?

[Rebecca Paul]

I would not choose to have this specific definition in the Bill. There may well be another definition that I would be more comfortable with, so I cannot rule that out. However, I completely agree with the hon. Lady that this has been a helpful debate, and I really appreciate her tabling the amendments so that we could have it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Marie Tidball and Rebecca Paul

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Paul]

I can confirm that I did not contact the promoter on this. My understanding is that if something is not legally coherent, it would normally be the Government who would contact the relevant MP to have that discussion and allow that reflection. That was the point I was trying to make; my apologies if I focused on the promoter more than I should have. I always enjoy meeting the promoter of this Bill.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Lady for the work she has done today. As a fellow new Member who sat on the Employment Rights Bill Committee, I can tell her that we debated many amendments from both sides. Sometimes, they arrived from both sides on the day and we had to absorb them on the day.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Marie Tidball and Rebecca Paul

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Paul]

I support my hon. Friend’s comments. Outside of this place, I speak about this topic in a manner that is as sensitive as possible. When we are talking about the legislative changes that are needed to this Bill and how it interacts with other legislation, I will use the correct legal terminology, because I think it is really important that we do that.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I appreciate the hon. Lady raising the need to use accurate legal language. Does she agree, therefore, that introducing “undue influence”, which is used regularly in the law of equity but not in the criminal law, would unhelpfully complicate matters, considering that coercive behaviour is defined in section 76 of the Serious Crime Act 2015 where it provides for an offence of controlling or coercive behaviour in that context? We have 10 years of case law. The hon. Lady rightly pointed to the importance of looking at case law and at how courts have dealt with this; the understanding of coercion in the criminal law offences is well known and well rehearsed, whereas the use of undue influence in the context of criminal law offences, which is what we are dealing with in clause 26, is not.

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the hon. Lady for that point, but I do not think we are talking about criminal law here. This debate is not relevant to clause 24—it is relevant to eligibility. We are simply saying, through this amendment, that if a clinician thinks someone has been unduly influenced, they would not be eligible. I think the hon. Lady is crossing over to the encouragement point, but these are separate points.

[Dr Tidball]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Rebecca Paul]

I am sorry, but I am going to give way to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, if he still wishes to intervene, as I am aware that he has been waiting.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Marie Tidball and Rebecca Paul

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Tidball]

That is very helpful; thank you.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

Q My question is to Dr Sarah Cox. What do you think will be the impact on palliative care of introducing assisted dying?

Dr Cox: Professor Ahmedzai has talked about the evidence, which was written up to 10 years ago. There is actually more recent evidence, looking at the last 10 years, where European countries and American states have been assessed in terms of the development of palliative care services. That more recent evidence shows that although palliative care services have improved in those countries where assisted dying has been implemented, they have improved three times more in countries where assisted dying has not been implemented. The evidence from that study shows that the implementation of assisted dying is impeding the development of palliative care services.

The other thing we are really concerned about is the impact on funding. It is unclear how this is going to be funded. It looks as if it is going to be within healthcare, and if so, there will inevitably be competition with other aspects of healthcare, including palliative care, for those limited resources. There are finite numbers of doctors, nurses and side rooms in hospitals. If palliative care and assisted dying were funded from the same pot, I think there would be a massive detrimental effect on palliative care because we would be in competition for a limited resource.

I am also concerned about our palliative care workforce, which we know is already in crisis. Eighty-three per cent. of our members told the Royal College of Physicians in 2023 that they had staffing gaps, and more than 50% were unable to take leave because of those staffing gaps. Forty-three per cent. said that if assisted dying were implemented within their organisation, they would have to leave. This has a massive impact on palliative care, in terms of its potential to develop both our funding and our workforce, who are really concerned about this.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Marie Tidball and Rebecca Paul

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Tidball]

That is very helpful; thank you.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

Q My question is to Dr Sarah Cox. What do you think will be the impact on palliative care of introducing assisted dying?

Dr Cox: Professor Ahmedzai has talked about the evidence, which was written up to 10 years ago. There is actually more recent evidence, looking at the last 10 years, where European countries and American states have been assessed in terms of the development of palliative care services. That more recent evidence shows that although palliative care services have improved in those countries where assisted dying has been implemented, they have improved three times more in countries where assisted dying has not been implemented. The evidence from that study shows that the implementation of assisted dying is impeding the development of palliative care services.

The other thing we are really concerned about is the impact on funding. It is unclear how this is going to be funded. It looks as if it is going to be within healthcare, and if so, there will inevitably be competition with other aspects of healthcare, including palliative care, for those limited resources. There are finite numbers of doctors, nurses and side rooms in hospitals. If palliative care and assisted dying were funded from the same pot, I think there would be a massive detrimental effect on palliative care because we would be in competition for a limited resource.

I am also concerned about our palliative care workforce, which we know is already in crisis. Eighty-three per cent. of our members told the Royal College of Physicians in 2023 that they had staffing gaps, and more than 50% were unable to take leave because of those staffing gaps. Forty-three per cent. said that if assisted dying were implemented within their organisation, they would have to leave. This has a massive impact on palliative care, in terms of its potential to develop both our funding and our workforce, who are really concerned about this.