Medicines and Medical Devices Bill (First sitting)

Marie Rimmer Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 8th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Norris]

It feels to a certain extent as if we are having this conversation the wrong way round. I have not been in Parliament very long, but I have been on quite a few Bill Committees—I am sad like that. Normally the Opposition try to put words in a Bill and the Government say, “We agree with the principle; it just does not need to be on the face of the Bill.” It feels as if on the attractiveness point we are doing that the other way round. I completely accept that there is no nefarious aim, but I personally think that it is superfluous. We can perhaps pursue that at a later stage.

I agree, too, that those things are not necessarily in conflict but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow said, I can see circumstances in which they might be, in the sense of pressure to drop our standards in order to get certain investments. For the Opposition, that has been a fear throughout, and we can certainly see it in this place, which is why we would like to enshrine a provision in the Bill.

Finally, I accept the point that patient safety must come first, but I do not think that the Bill—although it was written with lots of lists in it—creates hierarchies in those lists. It does not specify what falls down, that A is better than B which is better than C which is better than D, so that does not quite cover the point. I will not press the amendments to a vote, but with permission, we might come back to them later. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Manufacture, marketing and supply

[Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end, insert—

“(o) the origin and treatment of human organs used in the process of developing or manufacturing medicines”.

This amendment empowers the appropriate authority to make provisions on the process of developing or manufacturing medicines in relation to the origin and treatment of human organs.

It is a pleasure to serve in Committee under your chairmanship, Mr Davies.

The purpose of the amendment is to empower the Government to make regulations providing for the treatment of human organs in the development of the manufacturing of medicines. This is necessary due to the actions of the Chinese Government in Beijing.

The China tribunal launched the first independent legal analysis of all evidence related to organ harvesting in China. The tribunal is headed by Sir Geoffrey Nice, QC, who served as the lead prosecutor of Slobodan Milošević. It stated:

“Forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale”.

I have forwarded copies of this document to all members of the Committee. I am trying to be as transparent as possible—this is not about trying to kid or trick on our commitment. I am sure that people in the country would agree. All members have copies, which I sent out over the weekend. I have given a short version of what the independent public tribunal said. Clearly, on the second page, it stated:

“Forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale and that Falun Gong practitioners have been one—and probably the main—source of organ supply. The concerted persecution and medical testing of the Uyghurs is more recent, and it may be that evidence of forced organ harvesting of this group may emerge in due course.

The Tribunal has had no evidence that the significant infrastructure associated with China’s transplantation industry has been dismantled and absent a satisfactory explanation as to the source of readily available organs concludes that forced organ harvesting continues till today.”

There is therefore clear evidence that China is conducting medical testing on organs forcibly harvested from Uighurs, the Falun Gong, conscientious objectors and political prisoners. Indeed, a study by medical journal The BMJ raised ethical issues about more than 400 Chinese medical studies. The harvesting of organs from those people not only is an abhorrent act in and of itself, but often involves forced brain damage and vegetation of the person involved, of course leading to their eventual death.

Those papers that I sent to all Committee members refer to a debate in the House of Lords on 2 March, which raised the issue of the tribunal on forced organ harvesting in China. On that harvesting, Lord Alton commented that the

“organised butchery of living people compares to ‘the worst atrocities committed in conflicts of the 20th century’, including the gassing of Jews by the Nazis and the Khmer Rouge massacres in Cambodia”.

The UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office informed the UK House of Lords that the World Health Organisation, which previously advised that China’s transplant system is ethical, responded:

“The evidence that it uses is based on the self-assessment made by the country that is a signatory, and in this case that is China.”

That comes from the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The British Medical Association calls on the Government to reconsider their position on this issue in the light of the findings of the tribunal, and to use their influence with the international community to ensure that a full, proper investigation takes place.

We therefore need to take the necessary steps to protect the United Kingdom’s healthcare system from being morally compromised through an injection of Chinese medicines developed in a way that breaches some of the most basic human rights. This amendment does not aim to shut down trade in medicines between the United Kingdom and China. Leaps in progress made for preserving human rights should be readily shared and traded across the globe. However, these leaps in progress should not come at the expense of innocent human lives, and we must do all that we can to ensure that this practice cannot be profited from.

By passing this amendment, the Government will be empowered to make regulations ensuring that medicines supplied in the United Kingdom meet basic human rights standards with regard to how organs have been obtained in their development and manufacture. Any medicines that meet these standards and any other standards set by the Government will, of course, be welcomed into the United Kingdom.

This amendment does not force the Government to implement these regulations now; it merely empowers the Government and the relevant authorities to take the necessary steps to regulate around this issue when they are prepared to do so. I can therefore see no moral or practical reason why members of the Committee would not wish to see this amendment added to this Bill, and urge the Committee to consider it.

[Alex Norris]

My hon. Friend has made a persuasive and powerful case, as she did on Second Reading. From the debate on Second Reading, I took away the phrase that this gives us a chance to “strike a blow” against this heinous industry. I certainly support her in that regard.

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I trust that hon. Members agree that the amendment is not appropriate for the Bill— however well meaning—and that it is unnecessary, given the way in which medicines and medical devices are regulated. To that end, I respectfully ask the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston to withdraw the amendment.

[Ms Rimmer]

I am sorry about this—really sorry—because I understood that being a Minister was about co-operation, patience and morals. I do not disbelieve what the Minister says. However, there has been a public and independent inquiry, which found beyond all reasonable doubt. Those running the inquiry were people of stature and good regard, with a history of working for human rights.

I cannot withdraw the amendment. I ask that, at the very least, the Committee considers meeting Sir Geoffrey Nice and a Chinese surgeon who was forced to carry out the removal of organs in China, and who is now a taxi driver in London. They could meet somehow—I am sure we could do it on Teams or something like that. Before we get to Report, I urge the Committee to agree to such a meeting or to listen to and read the evidence. I cannot in all conscience accept that the learned people who sat on the China tribunal would have not researched and challenged—people such as Lord Alton, Lord Hunt and others in the House of Lords. Indeed, many hon. Members spoke about China’s treatment of Uighur Muslims in a Westminster Hall debate that was led by a Conservative Member on 11 March. I am sure some of them would have looked and questioned.

I will not and cannot withdraw the amendment, but I urge the Committee to have neutrality and meet the relevant people so that we can check. I would certainly have to check with learned people before I can begin to consider withdrawing the amendment. I cannot accept that the learned people who have engaged with this issue for so long—we have worked on it for nearly two years and, coincidentally, the Bill came along. I have tried to get a private Member’s Bill but have not succeeded. I have tried every nook and cranny to do anything I can to stop this practice. I do not want to risk our health service or our country’s reputation, which could be tarnished by being involved. I have dear friends who are Chinese, but I do not trust the Chinese Government in any way. I urge the Minister please at least to let us meet and consider this issue before Report. I have not sat on a Bill Committee before, Mr Davies, so I am not sure of procedure and, as you know, I am profoundly deaf. I urge the Minister please not to throw out amendment 1 without us doing that and rechecking every nook and cranny.

[Jo Churchill]

I understand the hon. Member’s passion for this area. As she said, she has tried to find every nook and cranny. I gently repeat that the Bill is not the right place for amendment 1, but I commit to writing to my Foreign and Commonwealth Office counterpart on this point and to exploring it further, if that would be of assistance to her. However, I say again that the Bill is not the vehicle for the amendment and I ask her to withdraw it.

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[The Chair]

The hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston said she was inexperienced in Bill Committees. I can happily tell her that at this moment in time she is in charge and it is entirely down to her whether she wishes to press her amendment to a Division or to withdraw it. It is for her to indicate which of those options she would prefer.

[Ms Rimmer]

Thank you for your guidance, Mr Davies; it is much appreciated. I will not withdraw the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made.