Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation

Debate between Margot James and Daniel Zeichner

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Margot James]

This centre will play its part, but I also draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the AI Council—recently launched, and chaired by Tabitha Goldstaub, founder of CognitionX—which is charged with taking forward the AI sector deal so we have an industry that lives up to its potential.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

I too welcome the new centre, but will it be accountable to the Government, or perhaps to Parliament through the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee? Will the Minister also tell us a little more about its relationship with the ICO and rerun the answer to the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) on DeepMind, because to suggest that because these are private companies there is no role for Government is, frankly, a complete abrogation of responsibility?

[Mr Speaker]

There were three inquiries there, but just one aggregated response is required.

Data Protection Bill [Lords] (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Margot James and Daniel Zeichner

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Margot James]

I want to correct one thing that the hon. Gentleman said: I did not say that that activity was taking place across the industry; I said that it was still taking place. Indeed, we have heard the horrendous allegations made by John Ford, albeit referring to behaviour that predates 2011. He alleges that it is still going on. I am not denying that it probably is still carrying on in pockets, but I would not say that it is widespread.

Press self-regulation has changed significantly in recent years with the establishment of IPSO, which follows many of the principles set out in the Leveson report. As so few publishers have joined a regulator recognised under the royal charter, commencement of section 40 would have a chilling effect on investigative journalism, which is so important to a well-functioning democracy.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. We keep hearing about the chilling effect—it is well rehearsed—but could the Minister confirm that it could be entirely avoided if newspapers sign up to an appropriate regulator, which does not have to be IMPRESS? It is not a difficult thing to do.

[Margot James]

Currently, IMPRESS is the only regulator recognised under the royal charter. I cannot speak for the press. There was a heated debate when the legislation went through Parliament. The press decided as one not to join what they perceived as a state-backed regulator. IPSO now does the job, albeit the Financial Times and The Guardian alone among the broadsheets have not joined IPSO.

The media landscape has changed. As I noted earlier, high-quality journalism is under threat from the rise of clickbait and fake news, from difficulties in generating revenue online to replace the revenue that used to flow from printed sources, and from the dramatic, continued rise of largely unregulated social media. If implemented, section 40 could impose further financial burdens on publishers, particularly at local level—200 local papers have closed in the last decade.

On top of that, the amendments made in the other place undermine our Scotland and Northern Ireland devolution settlements—that point was ably made by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute. The proposed new clauses seek to legislate on a UK-wide basis despite press regulation being a reserved matter for the devolved Administrations, which brings me to amendments 137, 138 and 139 in the name of the hon. Gentleman.

The Government are sympathetic to the hon. Gentleman’s arguments for reasons I have set out. We will nevertheless push instead for the removal of those clauses from the Bill in their entirety. Similarly, while we agree with the sentiment of amendment 137, which seeks to require the Government to obtain the Scottish Government’s consent before establishing an inquiry under clause 142, we note that there is already a consultation requirement to that effect in the Inquiries Act 2005. Such an amendment is therefore unnecessary.

To conclude, high-quality news provision is vital to our society and democracy. I know there is shared interest across the House in safeguarding its future, and the Government are passionate about and working to deliver it. We believe that the clauses would work against those aims and cut across the work we are doing to help strengthen the future of high-quality journalism, and will therefore oppose their continued inclusion in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margot James]

The clause replicates section 55(a) of the 1998 Act, which gives the commissioner a power to serve a monetary penalty, requiring the data controller to pay the commissioner an amount determined by the commissioner. The maximum penalty is specified in clause 156. Before the commissioner can issue a penalty notice, she must be satisfied that a person has failed to comply with certain provisions of the GDPR or the Bill, or has failed to comply with an information notice, assessment notice or enforcement notice.

Clearly, it is up to the commissioner to decide whether a penalty notice is appropriate. She has stated:

“It’s about putting the…citizen first. We can’t lose sight of that…It’s true we’ll have the power to impose fines much bigger than the £500,000 limit the DPA allows us.”

[Daniel Zeichner]

For reasons that are entirely understandable, my constituents in Cambridge take a particularly close interest in some of the things that have been happening with Cambridge Analytica this week. They will be astonished that the Minister does not seem to be answering the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley. Financial penalties, yes, but criminal proceedings surely should be uppermost when we have seen these dreadful things that have been going on.

[Margot James]

I was coming on to answer the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, but as the hon. Member for Cambridge has raised her question again, I will jump to it. We are not removing all criminal powers under this new legislation. Under paragraph 2 of schedule 15, the commissioner may enforce assessment notices. That power includes the new offence of obstructing a warrant, which is a criminal offence, so criminal offences do remain. As I said, we are looking at the commissioner’s desire for stronger powers in certain areas, but under the current law there is a criminal sanction only for non-compliance with a notice, and that offence is not used. A civil penalty is a better way forward and is provided as the appropriate sanction by the GDPR itself.

Data Protection Bill [ Lords ] (Morning sitting)

Debate between Margot James and Daniel Zeichner

Thursday 15th March 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I listened closely to the Minister—I am struggling with the real and the applied GDPRs, as I am sure we all are—and the sense I get is that that will lead to potential divergence, which could have further consequences. We have reached an important point in the discussion. If we have divergence a few years down the line, does that not put adequacy at risk?

[Margot James]

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that divergence, if it occurs, will apply only to the applied GDPR, which is outside the scope of EU law, and therefore may well apply in a similar sense to member states as well as to us, when we become a third country.

Data Protection Bill [ Lords ] (Third sitting)

Debate between Margot James and Daniel Zeichner

Thursday 15th March 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I listened closely to the Minister—I am struggling with the real and the applied GDPRs, as I am sure we all are—and the sense I get is that that will lead to potential divergence, which could have further consequences. We have reached an important point in the discussion. If we have divergence a few years down the line, does that not put adequacy at risk?

[Margot James]

I reassure the hon. Gentleman that divergence, if it occurs, will apply only to the applied GDPR, which is outside the scope of EU law, and therefore may well apply in a similar sense to member states as well as to us, when we become a third country.

Data Protection Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Margot James and Daniel Zeichner

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Margot James]

I certainly can confirm that the schools that the right hon. Gentleman has cited—academies run by private sector organisations and/or charities—are public authorities for the purposes of the Bill, and will be subject to the same protections.

Question put and agreed to.

Amendment made: 8, in clause 7, page 5, line 13, after “specified” insert “or described”.—(Margot James.)

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 7.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 8

Lawfulness of processing: public interest etc

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 140, in clause 8, page 5, line 23, after “includes” insert

“but is not limited to,”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margot James]

I recognise the expertise of the hon. Member for Cambridge in this area, and I am glad of the opportunity to debate the matter fully with him, as I am conscious that I did not address the points he made in his good contribution on Second Reading. We all agree on the importance of scientific research, and one of the things I am most proud of in the industrial strategy is the huge increase in public funding for research and development. We welcome the interest in the Bill shown by the Wellcome Trust and other organisations. They are concerned that universities processing personal data in the context of ground-breaking medical research will not have a clear legal basis for doing so. The Government recognise how important that is, but we believe that the amendment is not necessary and that there is no need specifically to mention the research functions of public bodies in clause 8.

It might be helpful if I explain what clause 8 is designed to do. If an organisation is to process personal data, it must have a legal basis for doing so under article 6 of the GDPR. The clearest basis is where the data subject has given his or her consent to the processing, but article 6 also permits processing without someone’s consent in certain circumstances, including where

“processing is necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest or in the exercise of official authority vested in the controller”

Clause 8 helps to explain the meaning of “public interest tasks” by providing a list of processing activities that fall into that category. The list was always intended to be non-exhaustive, which is why we have used the word “includes”. In law, that word is always assumed to introduce a non-exhaustive list, and we have tried to make that point as clear as possible in the explanatory notes.

Additional phrasing in the Bill, such as that proposed in amendment 140, would add nothing to what is already in the clause’s interpretation under English law, and it would risk confusing the interpretation of the many other uses of that word elsewhere in the Bill. Given the non-exhaustive nature of the list, the fact that publicly funded research is not mentioned specifically does not mean that the research functions of public bodies will not be considered as “public interest tasks”, thereby providing a legal basis for universities to process personal data.

The Information Commissioner’s Office said:

“Universities are likely to be classified as public authorities, so the public task basis is likely to apply to much of their processing”.

Its guidance goes on to give “teaching and research purposes” as one such example. Hon. Members will appreciate that the list could become very long and still not be conclusive if we included everything that the Government and the Information Commissioner’s Office consider amounts to a “public interest task”. Given those reassurances, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not feel it necessary to press his amendment to a vote.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I thank the Minister for her kind words—particularly about Second Reading. I think that we were all puzzled about what was going on at about five minutes to 10; I am none the wiser. I am slightly disappointed by her response, because this is not a party political discussion. We all want to get to the same place. In many ways, the discussion we have just had is not that dissimilar from the previous one about educational institutions, schools and academies. There are many grey areas relating to what universities are, and what their status and that of the research bodies associated with them is. My worry is that if we just take the Minister’s reassurances rather than amend the Bill, the uncertainty to which I alluded—it is not my uncertainty; it is what staff at esteemed research institutions say they feel—will be a problem. We should try to improve the Bill to get the clarity we need.