Local Audit (Public Access to Documents) Bill

Debate between Marcus Jones and Charlie Elphicke

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 25th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)]

It is a pleasure to speak in favour of this extremely important private Member’s Bill brought to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton).

The Government believe that the issue is worthy of our support. The clear intention to legislate on this issue goes back to December 2014 in the then Conservative-led coalition Government’s response to the consultation exercise on secondary legislation implementing the new local audit regime. I would like to quote the exact wording used in paragraph 4.11 of that response:

“Government believes that journalists should also be able to inspect accounts and information, in the interests of local people, and therefore intends to legislate at the earliest opportunity to ensure that the definition of ‘persons interested’ (see section 26 of the 2014 Act) is wide enough to enable this”

[Charlie Elphicke]

The Minister is making a typically polished and erudite speech from the Dispatch Box, but there is one thing that troubles me about this measure. What exactly will it cover that is not already covered by measures in the Freedom of Information Act 2000? I can make a freedom of information request about a council’s accounts and obtain the information anyway. Will he help me and other hon. Members to understand how all this works?

[Mr Jones]

As ever, my hon. Friend makes an extremely pertinent point, which I will come on to. The Bill will be an important aid in the fight to improve local transparency and accountability by amending section 26 of the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014. Journalists, including citizen journalists, will be afforded the same rights as “persons interested”. They will be enabled, for 30 days, to inspect the accounting records of the financial year just ended of any relevant authority and request copies of these documents.

Hon. Members might wonder how such a small change could improve local transparency and accountability, and about the potential associated costs—both points were raised by several hon. Friends. I hope that I can reassure the House on both. On the first, by giving journalists the right to access recent accounting information from a range of local public bodies, the Bill will assist them in their investigations, and publication of their findings could alert local taxpayers to poor spending decisions. As a result, local electors might wish to seek information from the auditor or object to the accounts, thus enabling the auditor to investigate. The measure could therefore increase town hall transparency and accountability.

On the costs, we are not introducing a new right, but extending an existing one to include journalists. Furthermore, the timeframe for these requests is limited to a month in each year, and the body concerned can recover the costs of providing any copies from the requester. The Bill will enable journalists only to examine the documents and seek copies; they will not be able to question the auditor or make objections. Those rights could still only be exercised by local electors, as is the case now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I shall make some progress, if I may.

This provision might make local public bodies think more carefully about high levels of expenditure on certain items and how it might look to the general public during periods of financial constraint and reduced public spending.

I should also point out that the 2014 Act includes an explicit power for auditors to refuse to consider vexatious objections, and even if several electors were to ask the same question or make the same objection, the auditor need undertake only one investigation, although a reply to each individual with the outcome might be necessary. The auditor is able to recover any reasonable costs of carrying out this work from the authority concerned. However, if the work results in increased costs, it could be argued that that might cause the authority to consider its future expenditure more carefully.

[Charlie Elphicke]

rose—

[Mr Jones]

I shall give way once more.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The Minister is making a passionate speech and is being so generous in taking interventions. I want to push him a bit harder on one aspect. Under this measure, journalists cannot raise objections or question the auditor. I used to sit on Lambeth Council in the days when it was called “loonyland” and was as bent as a corkscrew. Will the Minister reconsider whether, in such cases, journalists should be able to question the auditor and press him a bit harder, because if that had happened, things might not have come to such a pass in the London Borough of Lambeth as they did under old Red Ted Knight?

[Mr Jones]

I thank my hon. Friend. The overarching objective here is to enable a journalist who might not be an elector in a particular area to uncover that sort of information and bring it to the public’s attention, so that the public can then question the auditor. There are a number of examples of where that has happened to positive effect, with changes having to be made by a local authority as a result.

The overarching objective of external public audit must be the proper use of public money, and if an elector objects and it results in investigations by the auditor, he is doing his job and any resulting delay in completion of the audit or additional cost to the body must be seen as a secondary consideration.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Marcus Jones and Charlie Elphicke

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

The hon. Lady forgets that the way the triple lock works involves not just inflation but earnings. At the moment, earnings are not rising at a great rate of knots because of the massive economic mismanagement of the Labour party that this Government are trying to put right, and that is not being assisted by the chaos in the eurozone. Over time, however, earnings will outstrip inflation and I suspect that will happen in the latter part of this year, so that has a bearing on age-related allowances.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is some hollowness to the Labour party’s argument regarding the state benefit? After all, Labour prevaricated for many years from the early 1980s in relation to the link to earnings that was taken away in the early 1980s. They had 13 years to rectify that, but did not do anything about it. Now we have put the triple lock in place, they are criticising that. Which way does my hon. Friend think they want it— with pensioners better off, as they will be under the Conservative-led coalition, or with pensioners being worse off as they were under Labour?

[Charlie Elphicke]

Exactly so. My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is true that we took away the whole issue of the earnings link, but we restored it, whereas the Labour party sat by as a spectator, including in its time in government. Overall, the package for pensioners means that no pensioner will lose out in cash terms. It is a fair settlement and this Government have looked after pensioners extraordinarily well.